Texas Shootout Aliasing Problems

HVXguy, you'll see our results and methods when the literally gigs and gigs of data are properly prepared and studied. at that time you'll be able to see for yourself the charts we shot and the settings we used.

In the meantime, I recommend you do some research on Adam Wilt, the director of the tests. His command of imaging technology is at a very high level, and more importantly, he has NO axes to grind.

In closing, if the camera works for you, that's great. It's a great camera and produces fantastic images. But please don't throw stones; the people (including myself) who worked 12-14 hour days for 4 days straight to make these tests happen are all right here and reading. Kid Texas has it right. They're all good cameras for different purposes.
 
Hello Nate,
Now I remember your work, very nice and your web navigation is very interesting. Sorry my post was not meant to cause big ripples by throwing stones. I have seen these "shoot-outs" digress into meaningless diatribes about charts and resolution and feel that many potential buyers of these cameras may be missing the boat because they are looking at specs on a sheet vs. looking and using the cameras. A long-time shooter myself, I have run the gamut of shooting experiences. Plus having been an editor for 20+ years I have seen the best & the worst. I known how hard these highly subjective tests can be. I have had my HVX for 6 weeks now. I find it both brilliant & frustrating at the same time. Let's face it. Most of the footage posted here will only be the best an HVX owner will render. I have had experience with all the HDV cameras except the Canon. (I will test it out myself) My goal for 2006 is to be able to deliver the best quality video for my clients budgets. Most delivery is via SD DVD for now. I have been experimenting with WMV HD delivery. I have compared side by side HDV vs. HVX footage on plasma, lcd, DLP and a plethora of SD sets. It all depends on what you are shooting and how you deliver. I made a choice to go HVX because of P2 and the general overall pic quality. HDV is the choice of many of my clients because they are more comfortable with tape. The projects I do are perfect for P2. So, thank you for the tests. I look forward to seeing the results!
 
ullanta said:
What we really need is the HVX to HVX shootout. What happened to that idea... people that see no noise and high res bring their cams, and compare to folks with the noisy low-res ones?
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I think it just came down to difference of opinion on what each of us finds acceptable and what we don't. After spending countless hours with my camera and seeing the multitude of footage posted on the web, I feel pretty confident knowing what the HVX is and is not capable of. For me, it's not capable enough. That's just my own opinion, however, and what doesn't work for one person may totally work for someone else. It all depends on the situation.

As a 15 year old making silly shorts in high school, I would have loved to have a camera like this. Shoot, I would have killed to have a DVX, even. And there are probably a lot of young filmmakers on these forums that share that same kind of enthusiasm for a camera that allows them to do things they were never able to before. Compared to a VX2000, the HVX is a miracle of modern technology. So it's not some kind of total disaster. My surprise was mostly that given the number of older (and assumingly more experienced) users that are present on these forums, there weren't higher expectations for the camera. Some users have made it pretty clear that they refuse to be critical in any way of a camera that I personally feel has obvious shortcomings. It's just a difference in perspective I guess. Personally, I don't like compromises - if you're going to do something, do it right. But I know, I know, the website is called DVXUser... the land of all things Panasonic... I'm clear of where I'm at and what the majority of the opinions are going to be. So I've stopped posting my perspective on the limitations of the camera because I think people are more than aware by this point and ultimately it's each individual's repsponsibility to do their own testing and decide for themselves what works and what doesn't.

At this point, though, I don't think that there is much that is going to sway too many people's opinions and yet another back and forth "showdown" probably isn't going to be of much benefit. Do some testing and get what works for you (assuming it exists). Meanwhile, I'll be headed to NAB.
 
Our expectations are very high. Very, very high. And it delivers. It's too bad you didn't take Evin up on watching the HD Bootcamp demo reel, it would have knocked your socks off.
 
Barry_Green said:
Our expectations are very high. Very, very high. And it delivers. It's too bad you didn't take Evin up on watching the HD Bootcamp demo reel, it would have knocked your socks off.
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Can Evin post that here? My expectations are very high as well. But not being independently wealthy I have to work with what I can.
The HVX is a bolex without the film. I am sure with the experience that Panasonic has gained with the HVX it is the tip of the P2 iceberg.
 
Actually I think it is a little better that a bolex and with P2 cards it includes unlimited film !
-A
 
I don't know what parts he may or may not be able to post. But you can ask any of the HD Bootcampers, we all watched it projected on a 10' screen and it was fantastic.
 
With the due respect Barry, and even friendship (you know! :)) but the Haakon unbiased post it is a great one. From a real filmmaker. And if it is possible to say...end of story. :costumed-smiley-047

Cheers to both,
Emanuel

EDIT -- BTW, 'cause of course I believe in your words and in the skills of all people involved there (Evin, Jarred -- what's more is it possible to say?...), I'd like to watch your footage, if viable. I also read that you made a Viper comparative, is that so?
 
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Barry_Green said:
It's too bad you didn't take Evin up on watching the HD Bootcamp demo reel, it would have knocked your socks off.
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Hey Barry,

I've never heard of Evin's Bootcamp demo reel... I'd be happy to watch it, but I certainly didn't turn down an offer to do so in the past. Not sure where you got that impression!

Also, as far as having "very, very high expectations," that's entirely relative.
 
Poi Boy said:
What is a REAL filmaker anyway ? This is getting silly.
-A
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A-

Regarding the posts changed and your info in another thread, I would say that basically you can easily figure the first assertion. So, it's not a problem. About the second part, sometimes I must agree. Therefore, I would suggest you to read again the referred post and also you can easily understand what both want to say.

EDIT -- BTW, it would be possible answer you with your own words here, if you prefer. It gives the same meaning result:

Poi Boy said:
E-
everyone on this site has different opinions of what great looking footage is; somethings I think look like poo others rave about. Some things I think look soft others think they are too sharp,It is human nature. I can say from my experience of 25 years of shooting and 10 years of manipulating digital images (...)
Aloha
-A
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Aloha
-E
 
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Emanuel said:
I'd like to watch your footage, if viable. I also read that you made a Viper comparative, is that so?
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Yes I did create a 720P reel that includes footage from both the Thompson Viper and HVX, shot of the same subject at the same time.

Unfortunately the Bootcamp reel is comprised of HVX footage from many of my clients as well as other filmmakers and I can not release any of it because the permission I secured was for projection in our HD Bootcamp series only.

At the Bootcamp I project it using a 720P 16:9 Native HD DLP Cinema projector made by Sim2. At 10' across you can really see the imaging potential of the camera. I project pixel to pixel, that means there is no up, down or cross conversion and no noise amplification. Just the real deal, all the pixels none of the fat. And at that size the pixels really speak for themselves, if it's great it looks great if it's Dog&%$# it's:furious3:

Haakon, I don't think the offer to show you the bootcamp demo ever came up but I believe I did offer to project some footage for you. I just hadn't cut the Bootcamp demo together till the bootcamp.

Any way the real poop is that the Viper ($90K) is a noisier camera than the HVX ($5.6K). Sharper?... Yes. Much more lattitude?...Yes More post options?...Yes Better DOF?...Yes. Cleaner?..................NO!

So there are many reasons why Maichel Man and David Fincher chose the Viper for thier movies but it wasn't because it was a clean camera.

I'm shooting a Mitsubishi Motors commercial next month on the Viper but I'll do my car interiors and some inserts on the HVX. And the two will blend seeemlessly... once I gain the HVX up to +3db.
 
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Haakon,

I was a boot camper in LA and sat in the front row during Evin's demo real. I used boot camp to make my go/no go decision on the HVX. For me it was a big GO!

I was all set to buy 5 HVXs for studio and remote work when the noise threads started to pop up here and on other sites. This made me pause and reevaluate the direction I was heading. So I started to bug various people to see some footage and Panasonic did a good job of connecting me to people to see it. But when the boot camp was announced it became a nobrainer to signup and get the opportunity to meet and interact with some incredibly talented, informed and giving people.

The footage was incredible on that 10' screen. My work will probably never be seen that large until the cost of projection or flat screen technology drops, but it was good to see all of the potential that the HVX can deliver.

Watching from the front row I actively ignored the properly lit subjects, which was hard in some cases, and focused on the shadows and areas in the 10 to 30 ire areas. Yes, I could see some slight mosquito noise in some cases, but it was really faint. I saw no macro blocking, moire patterns, or anything distracting at all.

If I had never heard about the noise issue, I may never had seen it all. I suppose if your work is comprised of heavy use of dark negative space, and I am talking 70+%, then maybe you might have an issue with it.

But back to your point, I really agree that the camera has to be right for you, your clients and your audience. I respect that and I hope you find a camera that works for you, and that you let us know what it is.

Regards,

Rob
 
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