Testimonies on P2 workflow...

DavidBeier

Veteran
It seems like every time someone wonders onto these boards wondering if they should buy a HVX200, the biggest problem is P2 workflow. Well the camera has been out for about a year now so I figured why not those of us who have taken the plunge share the experience we've had with P2. I'd invite anyone to add how they find the workflow and also any FS-100 users to weigh in since it too is a very viable option.

My own experience has been overwhelmingly posative. One thing which I keep hearing is, "P2 may be OK if you've got a huge crew but I don't work for a big production company or anything." Well, I'm pretty low tech myself. I purchased my HVX200 after graduating from film school. I'm currently operating in a middle of no where town untill things look to be stable enough back in New Orleans. I don't have access to big crews either. It's just me, the camera, and whatever skills I have as an operator and editor.

Despite all this, I've loved every minute of P2 workflow. Currently, I've shot one recruitment video, two training videos, and one videographer for hire job (which I did use tape on since it was a small thing). I was initially very nervous about the using P2 but everything has worked out great. Untill you've really experienced tapeless, it's hard to describe how fantastic it is. Being able to review your clips, delete what you want, not have to worry about digitizing, and being able to easily archive them on DVDs with icons and descriptions of what you have on there is a practical and organizational dream come true.

My last project was the two training videos for the NCPTT which were to be shot on three all day shoots. Initially, I was going to shoot them on tape out of nervousness with constantly hot swapping cards but, my love for the tapeless process won out and I went with P2. Despite my constant worry that something would get earased, everything turned out fine. My girlfriend brough her laptop to the shoot and offloaded my two 4 gigers as we went on while another friend manned the boom mike. On one day, my girlfriend even managed double duty, managing botht he boom and the cards (and she's never messed with any of this stuff before in her life). Nothing was lost during the shoot and we NEVER had to stop to wait for the P2's to finish offloading or anything like that. It also didn't require me hireing a bunch of expensive guys.

While I'm a bit embarassed at how gheto my recent production was, (it's been rather hard to find a solid crew since Katrina), I think it serves as an example of how you don't need to be a big budget job to fully take advantage of the HVX200 and P2 workflow. Seriously, think to yourself how many people you know who have a laptop (you may well have one yourself). It's not hard nor difficult to offload and the benafits are well worth it and, in the long run, better for a lower budget type operation. With tape, one would not only have to invest in decks and worry about mechanical part breakdowns as well as archiving footage on tape. With P2, all that goes away. Honestly, small DVD archiving is a MUCH nicer option than having a bunch of tapes with God knows what on it. As I was finishing editing the promo video the other night, I realized that I wanted to include a shot of the NCPTT building and the American flag outside it. The shots were from an unrelated project I put together months ago but I needed them desperatly since it has been raining here almost non-stop for the last week. If they had been on tape, I wouldn't have known where too look and probably not bothered. On DVD though, I could quickly look at the ones dated from that time, browse the icon files, and find the shots I needed.
 
David, I've been teaching FCP classes here in New Orleans, and doing work, supporting myself. Not sure what you're waiting for, there's work here. The NOVAC Digital Filmmakers Institute I teach for filled up six FCP classes to capacity plus some for 2006. And all our students are working.

Anyway, I really loved the tapless workflow at first. I use an FS-100. In fact I have a video tutorial that covers everything about the FS-100 being released in about two weeks. I'll be announcing a release date on these boards this weekend.

I did lose parts of a very important, historically priceless interview for a documentary I'm making (and it had NOTHING to do with Katrina). It was due to data corruption from the camera. Happened to our P2 card back ups and to the FS-100 original. Both corrupting tells me it was the camera. Had it checked, came back with a clean bill of health. Go figure. In all the many years I've been doing this, I never lost anything I recorded on tape.

So, I learned the hard way that as long as we're dealing with digital files, there's a LOT of vulnerability with the tapeless system as a whole. I don't think it's a Panny specific problem, just the normal problems you have with digital files. They get corrupt, and can become corrupt at any part of the process, from the camera to the computer. Just a fact of life. Make sure you have back up copies of everything.

I'm fighting the backers of my documentary to allow me to continue to produce this with the HVX and tapeless, but we're all pretty seriously heart broken over our lost interview segments. Most of what we're doing are once in a lifetime interviews that we will never have a second chance at. Historically priceless footage, for real. So, I have mixed feelings about the HONEST stability of any overall tapeless system.

I've been running the same Mini-DV deck for years, it hasn't failed. It's paid for itself many times over. So, decks do last a long time. I don't buy the lack of moving parts argument. P2 cards have failed, hard drives have failed, DVDs have failed, historicly much more often than tape.

I love the FS-100. And the v.3 firmware is going to add some very important features to it. Anyone who needs to record for long times really should be using the FS-100. I am interviewing people who don't like, nor trust "outsiders" or "technology". So, I don't get to bring along all the hardware I wish I could. Without the FS-100, the HVX would not be able to handle shooting this documentary.

Been out a whole year, and we still only have 8GB P2 cards. That's super disapointing to me. Shows a lack of growth for the HVX.

Archiving footage on tape is actually physically safer than to hard drives or DVDs. You should label your tapes well, just like your DVDs. DVDs don't have nearly the shelf live of tape. Labling my tapes properly, I can find anything very fast and easily in our archive.

BTW, next week we're having our first New Orleans Final Cut Studio Users Group, if you're interested. Don't know how far away you are. PM me if you're interested.

Tapeless is nice, but it has inherent risks and is not bullet proof. Not anywhere near as bullet proof as tape. Don't get caught up in the hype. HVX is a great camera, but tapelss is more expensive to archive, and unless you're archiving to tape, it's a risky archive, too. Don't kid yoruself.

As for not having to digitize, well, there's all that time of file transfers that is not instantanious. P2 is nice, but not for everyone, and is NOT bullet proof, nor safer than tape. Let's keep the cold hard realities in focus.
 
Archiving footage on tape is actually physically safer than to hard drives or DVDs. You should label your tapes well, just like your DVDs. DVDs don't have nearly the shelf live of tape.
This is probably true. Another option could be to use hard drives as a backup media. Just get an external HD box, and keep your backup HDs on the shelf. i expect them to be pretty longlasting too (with the drawback that if a HD goes bad, you'll lose WAY more stuff than a single tape or DVD). Price per GB is very comparable with DVDs.

Andrea
 
BenB said:
Been out a whole year, and we still only have 8GB P2 cards. That's super disapointing to me. Shows a lack of growth for the HVX.

What do you think about a newer version of the HVX200 that would remove the tape mechanism and replace it with an internal 80 GB hard drive? That way you might be able to record simultaneously to P2 and to an internal hard drive, avoiding the data loss you experienced.
 
Back ups are super important with tapeless workflows. Archiving is more expensive than tape. Never heard of any new HVX with a built in hard drive. But, it's still a hard drive, with data, and susceptible to all the pitfalls of any hard drive with data on it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the HVX, it's just not bullet proof, as some of our more evangelical posters insist. I do love the camera. Just wish they'd do something about the size of those dang P2 cards already. How long does it take?
 
Good thread. What tapes do you backup to? DLT?
I once had a Perception and when I threw it out couldn´t read the files it made. So do you guys leave in mxf and always save all originals or do you convert to something like QTHD or WMHD as a backup?
Best would be to backup to HDCam tape, but somehow they are a tad bit overpriced these decks.....
 
Overland Films does all of our development work for broadcast in P2. As new technologies emerge, we're integrating them into the workflow when possible.

We provide a producer's P2 workflow overview document to each producer and post-production coordinator that explains, in general terms, our processes.

We've recently added 4GB DVD backups in addition to duplicate, non-RAID hard drive recording on-set.

Typical crew for our development shoots includes a Field Producer, Camera Operator, Sound Operator and Production Assistant. The PA is charged with running P2 cards to our batching laptop (running P2Genie, RayMaker / Raylight) and field logging from timecode.

I have done DP work on a feature documentary in recent months with only a director and camera operator as crew for HVX200 P2 shooting. All controlled, sit-down interviews, so two people could manage even with three-point lighting. In this case, we downloaded to the P2Store and transferred files during lunch and at the conclusion of the shooting day.

Had P2Genie been available at the time, we would have likely ditched the P2Store in favor of the more bulky but automated laptop scenario.

We leave space on our capture drives for what we call the "DVFilm Digital Intermediate", which is effectively the AVI proxy files achieved through Raylight. We do not, despite advances which allow it, separate the MXF source from the DI proxies. This choice is made strictly for housekeeping reasons - having to pull your "MXF negative" for final HD render ("conforming your negative") doesn't appeal to me when you can have the files already residing right next to the proxies on common drive(s).

Now, it is possible to take your HD master via P2 card for transfer to your desired deliverable formats. We have yet to do this because we don't typically handle broadcast deliverables in our business, but it is a watershed moment to be able to take solid-state media to a proper finishing house for output to HDCam or D5 or so on.

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I have shot 2 features, a few shorts, handful of music vids - all tapeless to P2 - probably about 1000 cards worth - and I never lost a clip or a shot - and I have all footage archived and in use.

I think it is bulletproof if you make your workflow bulletproof - thats the key.

About the camera corrupting a clip - Not that I dont beleive the report - but I have never heard of another report - Is it possible that the clip was somehow corrupted when loaded into a laptop?
 
I think P2 is extremely reliable (100% so far for me), but it isn't bulletproof -- nothing is. Not P2, not tape, not hard drives, nor any other device designed by man.

We all expect cars to get us from point A to point B, but sometimes that doesn't happen. We expect the lights to come on when we flip a light switch, and sometimes that doesn't happen either. Stuff fails, and humans make mistakes.

Structure your workflow to give you some redundancy if possible, and find a way to deal with it when the Wheel-O-Failure is spun and lands on your sorry butt.
 
THoff said:
I think P2 is extremely reliable (100% so far for me), but it isn't bulletproof -- nothing is. Not P2, not tape, not hard drives, nor any other device designed by man.

We all expect cars to get us from point A to point B, but sometimes that doesn't happen. We expect the lights to come on when we flip a light switch, and sometimes that doesn't happen either. Stuff fails, and humans make mistakes.

Structure your workflow to give you some redundancy if possible, and find a way to deal with it when the Wheel-O-Failure is spun and lands on your sorry butt.

I completely agree!
 
THoff said:
I think P2 is extremely reliable (100% so far for me), but it isn't bulletproof -- nothing is. Not P2, not tape, not hard drives, nor any other device designed by man.

We all expect cars to get us from point A to point B, but sometimes that doesn't happen. We expect the lights to come on when we flip a light switch, and sometimes that doesn't happen either. Stuff fails, and humans make mistakes.

Structure your workflow to give you some redundancy if possible, and find a way to deal with it when the Wheel-O-Failure is spun and lands on your sorry butt.

Well, i can just agree 100% THoff..very wise and damn true...!

I hope to get a DLT recorder at the end of the year to be even a little bit more on the safe side..we all have to double cross fingers..yapp!
 
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