Hello. I am a DP and i have been shooting a short-film for the last week. Does anyone have any comments on the fact that i (the DP) is having a great deal of trouble working with the director? What the problem is, the director is giving me 0% control over the artistic feel of the shots. He is ultimetly making the movie look bad, (and im not the only crew member to think so). I know the director has the final say on how things should look, but when is it the DP's duty to tell the director "it looks bad that way". In addition, he loves to take only one type of shot, wide master shots. I feel like i am filming a theater/stage performance. He doesn't consider any close shots (which i think are essential).
Tension Between DP and Director
- Thread starter dasonras
- Start date
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
As an artist this can be a lesson in frustration. If you feel you can not properly communicate, you could leave the production. If not, then you are stuck as the precedent has been set and it can not be changed now. We all don't work well with everyone. As for your thoughts on him ruining the film, just remember, his name is the director, not yours. In the end, only his name will be used when they say how bad it is. While you might be worried about your name as a DP, fear not, you've got your story and plenty of others to verify what you were up against. just do your best and get the project over with.
As an artist this can be a lesson in frustration. If you feel you can not properly communicate, you could leave the production. If not, then you are stuck as the precedent has been set and it can not be changed now. We all don't work well with everyone. As for your thoughts on him ruining the film, just remember, his name is the director, not yours. In the end, only his name will be used when they say how bad it is. While you might be worried about your name as a DP, fear not, you've got your story and plenty of others to verify what you were up against. just do your best and get the project over with.
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
Ultimately, the director makes the final decisions on any production. Ideally, you would have had at least one preproduction meeting where you could have discussed the shot list and your responsibilities, but all too frequently it never happens for shorts. It's your responsibility to be completely honest with the director and lay out your case.
All you can really do is offer your suggestions and hope the director has the sense to take some good advice. Maybe you could review some of the footage with the director, so he can see potential problems.
At this point, you might as well grit your teeth and finish the project. If you really don't like the way things are going--ask to have your name taken off of the production.
Ultimately, the director makes the final decisions on any production. Ideally, you would have had at least one preproduction meeting where you could have discussed the shot list and your responsibilities, but all too frequently it never happens for shorts. It's your responsibility to be completely honest with the director and lay out your case.
All you can really do is offer your suggestions and hope the director has the sense to take some good advice. Maybe you could review some of the footage with the director, so he can see potential problems.
At this point, you might as well grit your teeth and finish the project. If you really don't like the way things are going--ask to have your name taken off of the production.
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
This could be yet another film with "Alan Smithee's" involvement.
This could be yet another film with "Alan Smithee's" involvement.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
But ultimately, make sure you do your job. Meaning, keep on telling him what you think, even if he ignores it. Don't be discouraged by that. Maybe you'll wear him down.
But ultimately, make sure you do your job. Meaning, keep on telling him what you think, even if he ignores it. Don't be discouraged by that. Maybe you'll wear him down.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
I agree with everything that's been said. Do your job the best you can, but when you're shot down, you're shot down, and the director has the authority to do that. So then it becomes an exercise in giving the director what he/she wants, and collecting your paycheck, and (if necessary) removing your name from the production.
In an ideal world the director would choose the DP because of the DP's artistic capabilities, and let that DP exercise the artistic freedom that would create the shots that the director hired the DP to do. In the real world, sometimes you just "check out", do the job the way they want it done, and collect your paycheck. As long as the director is happy with what they're getting, then you're doing what you're supposed to be doing.
I agree with everything that's been said. Do your job the best you can, but when you're shot down, you're shot down, and the director has the authority to do that. So then it becomes an exercise in giving the director what he/she wants, and collecting your paycheck, and (if necessary) removing your name from the production.
In an ideal world the director would choose the DP because of the DP's artistic capabilities, and let that DP exercise the artistic freedom that would create the shots that the director hired the DP to do. In the real world, sometimes you just "check out", do the job the way they want it done, and collect your paycheck. As long as the director is happy with what they're getting, then you're doing what you're supposed to be doing.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
It was settled with "The Director wants this...".
I suggest doing what the Director wants (if you have indeed approached an inpasse in creative collaboration). You duties now are to make sure your shots look the best they can possibly be (in terms of exposure and lighting).
Be the good guy, dont be the arse. When its all said and done people (the crew) will remember you being the professional and the director not having a f***ing clue.
It was settled with "The Director wants this...".
I suggest doing what the Director wants (if you have indeed approached an inpasse in creative collaboration). You duties now are to make sure your shots look the best they can possibly be (in terms of exposure and lighting).
Be the good guy, dont be the arse. When its all said and done people (the crew) will remember you being the professional and the director not having a f***ing clue.
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
dasonras, time you should start directing yourself.
dasonras, time you should start directing yourself.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
As long as you're hired to be a DP, that's your job. The DP is a really a service position, not an artists position. You're there to service the director's wishes, not to make your art. Don't forget that.
If the director wants the scene pitch black, make it pitch black. If the director wants the camera at a dutch angle, put the camera at a dutch angle. If the director wants a shakey hand-held camera during a romantic dinner scene, hoist that baby up on your shoulders and start downing red bulls.
My point is that it's great when a director takes your suggestions and listens to your input, but your job is to point the camera where he wants it and get the best shot you can for him...not for you.
If you're being paid, suck it up, shut it up and be a professional. As John Hudson said above, the crew will remember and respect you.
If you're not being paid, you always have the option of quitting the project, but again...the director and crew will remember you.
The business is run on reputation, focus more on building your reputation then building your reel.
As long as you're hired to be a DP, that's your job. The DP is a really a service position, not an artists position. You're there to service the director's wishes, not to make your art. Don't forget that.
If the director wants the scene pitch black, make it pitch black. If the director wants the camera at a dutch angle, put the camera at a dutch angle. If the director wants a shakey hand-held camera during a romantic dinner scene, hoist that baby up on your shoulders and start downing red bulls.
My point is that it's great when a director takes your suggestions and listens to your input, but your job is to point the camera where he wants it and get the best shot you can for him...not for you.
If you're being paid, suck it up, shut it up and be a professional. As John Hudson said above, the crew will remember and respect you.
If you're not being paid, you always have the option of quitting the project, but again...the director and crew will remember you.
The business is run on reputation, focus more on building your reputation then building your reel.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
"The DP is a really a service position, not an artists position. You're there to service the director's wishes, not to make your art. Don't forget that. "
No offense to anyone but in the professional world this statement is simply ridiculous. Professional directors hire DPs for their ability and if they had a good past relationship, then for the working relationship. A DP has a lot of say and professional directors listen to the DP when it involves how the film looks and how to achieve that look. I have worked on many films with some of todays leading directors, and I have yet to see any director who thought a DP was just a pawn who did what he said to do. That is not how the film industry works folks as much as folklore some would like to imagine.
"The DP is a really a service position, not an artists position. You're there to service the director's wishes, not to make your art. Don't forget that. "
No offense to anyone but in the professional world this statement is simply ridiculous. Professional directors hire DPs for their ability and if they had a good past relationship, then for the working relationship. A DP has a lot of say and professional directors listen to the DP when it involves how the film looks and how to achieve that look. I have worked on many films with some of todays leading directors, and I have yet to see any director who thought a DP was just a pawn who did what he said to do. That is not how the film industry works folks as much as folklore some would like to imagine.
taubkin
Veteran
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
There are both kinds of jobs, because there are both sides on the same profession. The DP is an artis AND a technician. Sometimes the job is technical, sometimes it's artistic. I agree with both of you, because in life dialetics are much more common thatn in film scripts.
There are both kinds of jobs, because there are both sides on the same profession. The DP is an artis AND a technician. Sometimes the job is technical, sometimes it's artistic. I agree with both of you, because in life dialetics are much more common thatn in film scripts.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
Sorry, but I don't think that is a ridiculous statement. I see nothing in your reply that contradicts my statement as I intended it, so perhaps you are reading something in it I did not intend.
I'm not suggesting a DP is a pawn of the Director, merely that they are not ultimately equals on the creative stage, if for no other reason then the fact that the director's decisions will ultimately supercede the DP's sensibilities.
I agree with everything in your statement. A director is hired for their artistic ability, but their artistic touches don't come at the expense of the director's wishes. Their role, as artistic and creative as it may or may not prove to be, is to service the director's needs and desires.
You may be blessed enough to work with a director who hands you a camera and asks you to make whatever shot you like, or you may find yourself working with a director that dictates every light and lens. Either way, however creatively free or as stiflingly managed the working relationship proves to be, it does not impact upon the basic truth that the DP is there to service the picture…and as the ultimate caretaker of the picture, the director.
This is why I say it is a service position...just like the myriad of other artistic positions under the direct purview of a director... art direction, costume design, graphic effects, sound design, music, etc.... all incredibly creative people and departments who work to achieve the directors vision. None of them are pawns, but again, none of them are truly unmanaged in their creativity…right?
Perhaps it's just the notion of a "service position" that conjures visions of fry cooks, but that's just an issue of semantics. I don't think anything I'm saying can be considered outrageous or ridiculous.
(just my $0.02)
Sorry, but I don't think that is a ridiculous statement. I see nothing in your reply that contradicts my statement as I intended it, so perhaps you are reading something in it I did not intend.
I'm not suggesting a DP is a pawn of the Director, merely that they are not ultimately equals on the creative stage, if for no other reason then the fact that the director's decisions will ultimately supercede the DP's sensibilities.
I agree with everything in your statement. A director is hired for their artistic ability, but their artistic touches don't come at the expense of the director's wishes. Their role, as artistic and creative as it may or may not prove to be, is to service the director's needs and desires.
You may be blessed enough to work with a director who hands you a camera and asks you to make whatever shot you like, or you may find yourself working with a director that dictates every light and lens. Either way, however creatively free or as stiflingly managed the working relationship proves to be, it does not impact upon the basic truth that the DP is there to service the picture…and as the ultimate caretaker of the picture, the director.
This is why I say it is a service position...just like the myriad of other artistic positions under the direct purview of a director... art direction, costume design, graphic effects, sound design, music, etc.... all incredibly creative people and departments who work to achieve the directors vision. None of them are pawns, but again, none of them are truly unmanaged in their creativity…right?
Perhaps it's just the notion of a "service position" that conjures visions of fry cooks, but that's just an issue of semantics. I don't think anything I'm saying can be considered outrageous or ridiculous.
(just my $0.02)
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
I agree with JBarnes. If your so fortunate to have that 'relationship' with a DP and can coolaborate as artists together then thats wonderful but ultimately the DIRECTOR is the boss; PERIOD.
Whatever the director wants is going to supercede everything else.
I agree with JBarnes. If your so fortunate to have that 'relationship' with a DP and can coolaborate as artists together then thats wonderful but ultimately the DIRECTOR is the boss; PERIOD.
Whatever the director wants is going to supercede everything else.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
Addendum:
Again, everything I'm saying is specifically in reference to the problem stated in the original post by “dasonras”, and is worded as such. If someone were to read my reply without the benefit of the original post, they might find it to be very offensive to the spirit of cinematography in general...but you've got to keep it in the context of the post.
If the poster is correct and the director is ruining every shot while the crew looks on in disbelief, the crew is going to remember your professionalism more then how you argue with the director over the shot. In the end, it's his film, and if you can't get your opinions realized on screen, the only two options are to follow his direction or to quit.
In this situation, I think it's far more valuable for this person to continue on with the shoot rather then quit. It is invaluable to learn how to apply yourself 100% to ideas and methods you don’t agree with, and the experience of working well with someone you might even directly dislike is something that will benefit you again and again.
Sure the crew will remember when you suggested better shots that were turned down, but even more importantly...they will remember how you buck up and frame the shot you don't really want to shoot.
That is professionalism, it’s inspiring and it’s invaluable.
Addendum:
Again, everything I'm saying is specifically in reference to the problem stated in the original post by “dasonras”, and is worded as such. If someone were to read my reply without the benefit of the original post, they might find it to be very offensive to the spirit of cinematography in general...but you've got to keep it in the context of the post.
If the poster is correct and the director is ruining every shot while the crew looks on in disbelief, the crew is going to remember your professionalism more then how you argue with the director over the shot. In the end, it's his film, and if you can't get your opinions realized on screen, the only two options are to follow his direction or to quit.
In this situation, I think it's far more valuable for this person to continue on with the shoot rather then quit. It is invaluable to learn how to apply yourself 100% to ideas and methods you don’t agree with, and the experience of working well with someone you might even directly dislike is something that will benefit you again and again.
Sure the crew will remember when you suggested better shots that were turned down, but even more importantly...they will remember how you buck up and frame the shot you don't really want to shoot.
That is professionalism, it’s inspiring and it’s invaluable.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1101047693;start=0#12 date=11/22/04 at 10:33:43]ultimately the DIRECTOR is the boss; PERIOD.
Whatever the director wants is going to supercede everything else. [/quote]
Well, yes and no. Ultimately the PRODUCER is the boss, as the producer hires (and fires) the director as necessary.
The director is the DP's boss. There are varying levels of director. There are directors who understand focal lengths and contrast ratios, and who tell the DP exactly what to do. In cases like that, the DP becomes more of a "meat puppet" and collects his/her paycheck.
Then there are directors who don't know the technicals, and don't care, they just say "give me a warm shot, open and inviting, with a magical feeling around the subject", which leaves the DP pretty much free to practice their artist craft.
Just as there are differing types of directors, there are differing types of DP's. Some want to be told exactly what to do. Some don't want to be told what to do, they want full creative control over their realm.
Match the director to the DP, and you get a good combination and a healthy working relationship. Mismatch them and all you get is tension and frustration.
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1101047693;start=0#12 date=11/22/04 at 10:33:43]ultimately the DIRECTOR is the boss; PERIOD.
Whatever the director wants is going to supercede everything else. [/quote]
Well, yes and no. Ultimately the PRODUCER is the boss, as the producer hires (and fires) the director as necessary.
The director is the DP's boss. There are varying levels of director. There are directors who understand focal lengths and contrast ratios, and who tell the DP exactly what to do. In cases like that, the DP becomes more of a "meat puppet" and collects his/her paycheck.
Then there are directors who don't know the technicals, and don't care, they just say "give me a warm shot, open and inviting, with a magical feeling around the subject", which leaves the DP pretty much free to practice their artist craft.
Just as there are differing types of directors, there are differing types of DP's. Some want to be told exactly what to do. Some don't want to be told what to do, they want full creative control over their realm.
Match the director to the DP, and you get a good combination and a healthy working relationship. Mismatch them and all you get is tension and frustration.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
You are right Barry and I knew that; I was just illustrating the DIRECTOR/DP relationship.
You are right Barry and I knew that; I was just illustrating the DIRECTOR/DP relationship.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1101047693;start=0#11 date=11/22/04 at 10:29:28]Sorry, but I don't think that is a ridiculous statement. I see nothing in your reply that contradicts my statement as I intended it, so perhaps you are reading something in it I did not intend.[/quote]
I think perhaps its that we work at different levels of filmmaking. In my level, the director comes in and does his job. The AD is more the boss on the set than most of the big name directors I've work with. Rather the director simply does his job which is direct. He doesn't worry about lights, or sound or anything else. He is told when things are ready then he works with the talent. Each person on the crew does his or her job and their is a sort of synergy. The DP is usually doing his own work and conversing with the director when necessary. The camera operator is listening to the DP. The AC is doing his own thing. Bottom line on the types of sets I work on is there really is no hierarchy, just a crew that all know their jobs and do them all well. Everyone is not starring at Steven Spielberg waiting for him to tell them what to do. He does his scene and walks away while the rest of the crew does their job. When his AD says things are ready he comes back, calls for action and does the take. Then simply does what directors do, walks away while the next set up is done, or converses with someone such as the DP about what is coming up and how it might look, or watches back something on playback, or works with the talent on something. But no DPs I work with including myself are simply waiting for 'the boss' to tell us what to do. I know my job and I do it. We could sit all day and flow chart who is whose boss but that is not how films are made in my arena, nor television shows. So perhaps there is simply a difference that has no common ground.
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1101047693;start=0#11 date=11/22/04 at 10:29:28]Sorry, but I don't think that is a ridiculous statement. I see nothing in your reply that contradicts my statement as I intended it, so perhaps you are reading something in it I did not intend.[/quote]
I think perhaps its that we work at different levels of filmmaking. In my level, the director comes in and does his job. The AD is more the boss on the set than most of the big name directors I've work with. Rather the director simply does his job which is direct. He doesn't worry about lights, or sound or anything else. He is told when things are ready then he works with the talent. Each person on the crew does his or her job and their is a sort of synergy. The DP is usually doing his own work and conversing with the director when necessary. The camera operator is listening to the DP. The AC is doing his own thing. Bottom line on the types of sets I work on is there really is no hierarchy, just a crew that all know their jobs and do them all well. Everyone is not starring at Steven Spielberg waiting for him to tell them what to do. He does his scene and walks away while the rest of the crew does their job. When his AD says things are ready he comes back, calls for action and does the take. Then simply does what directors do, walks away while the next set up is done, or converses with someone such as the DP about what is coming up and how it might look, or watches back something on playback, or works with the talent on something. But no DPs I work with including myself are simply waiting for 'the boss' to tell us what to do. I know my job and I do it. We could sit all day and flow chart who is whose boss but that is not how films are made in my arena, nor television shows. So perhaps there is simply a difference that has no common ground.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
Yea, well on most of my films I'm the director, the DP, the gaffer, the grip...Sometimes I have to tell myself what to do, but then if I'm in a bad mood I just get into an argument with myself.
Yea, well on most of my films I'm the director, the DP, the gaffer, the grip...Sometimes I have to tell myself what to do, but then if I'm in a bad mood I just get into an argument with myself.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
Obviously there are many 'levels' and a hundred different scenarios in this situation. From (Spielberg/Kaminski, Cameron/Carpenter and Iñárritu/Prieto...)
I guarantee you these directors arent 'sitting around' just letting the DP do his job. Obvioulsy these filmmakers have a relationship with these DP's and they are given a ton of freedom and input but...
The filmmakers are'nt just sitting their and leaving the final product to be determined.
Obviously there are many 'levels' and a hundred different scenarios in this situation. From (Spielberg/Kaminski, Cameron/Carpenter and Iñárritu/Prieto...)
I guarantee you these directors arent 'sitting around' just letting the DP do his job. Obvioulsy these filmmakers have a relationship with these DP's and they are given a ton of freedom and input but...
The filmmakers are'nt just sitting their and leaving the final product to be determined.
Re: Tension Between DP and Director
well my experience is two documentaries and one and a half shorts...
it often comes down two who's paying for the production costs and/or who's equipment it is.
in my situations i was always the one with all the gear and paying for it and trouble arises when you use an actor and/or writer, who is often a friend, to help out.
in the real world where people are hired for specific tasks i would hope it would be more clear cut, but in the world of low budget-nobudget shorts, it can get awfully murky.
in this instance, are you being paid or is it a more typical short where people who know each other are working together with very blurry lines of responsibility?
matthew
well my experience is two documentaries and one and a half shorts...
it often comes down two who's paying for the production costs and/or who's equipment it is.
in my situations i was always the one with all the gear and paying for it and trouble arises when you use an actor and/or writer, who is often a friend, to help out.
in the real world where people are hired for specific tasks i would hope it would be more clear cut, but in the world of low budget-nobudget shorts, it can get awfully murky.
in this instance, are you being paid or is it a more typical short where people who know each other are working together with very blurry lines of responsibility?
matthew