"Taking Photos in a public place is not a crime" - Popular Mechanics
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Dave ©
Well-known member
Fascinating article. Lots of notable quotes. I like this one in particular:
"I believe there is a good case to be made that having lots of cameras in the hands of citizens makes us more, rather than less, safe."
Perhaps a bit of a tangent, I live in MD. I nearly caused an accident last week because of cameras. I was approaching an intersection with photo-enforced red lights. I was driving 5-8 mph over the limit, probably 45-ish in a 40. The light turned yellow and I instinctively slammed on my breaks 'cause I didn't want to run the red light and get a ticket. Thankfully, nobody was close enough behind me; otherwise, I'm sure they would have hit me.
These photo-enforcements are cropping up everywhere around here and I really believe it makes me a more dangerous driver than a better/safer one. Yes, you could argue that I shouldn't have been going over the speed limit. It's true. But I think the same thing could happen and probably does happen when driving within the limit.
"I believe there is a good case to be made that having lots of cameras in the hands of citizens makes us more, rather than less, safe."
Perhaps a bit of a tangent, I live in MD. I nearly caused an accident last week because of cameras. I was approaching an intersection with photo-enforced red lights. I was driving 5-8 mph over the limit, probably 45-ish in a 40. The light turned yellow and I instinctively slammed on my breaks 'cause I didn't want to run the red light and get a ticket. Thankfully, nobody was close enough behind me; otherwise, I'm sure they would have hit me.
These photo-enforcements are cropping up everywhere around here and I really believe it makes me a more dangerous driver than a better/safer one. Yes, you could argue that I shouldn't have been going over the speed limit. It's true. But I think the same thing could happen and probably does happen when driving within the limit.
Paul Hudson
Vacuum Tube Member
Since the rash of police abuse of power caught on video, starting with Rodney King, the law enforcement community has become hyper-sensitive to video, of any kind. I wonder why? And why are American public servants protecting BP's interests? Makes you wonder?
Yeah, the government enforced media black out of any footage of the BP cleanup on the Gulf coast goes against the very principles of a free press and is illegal. It is just the latest example of intimidation of not only official press but private individuals too. The fact that virtually everything you do see in the media is controlled by one of 5 media conglomerates doesn't help.
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MAybe a good reason to get off the CCTV madness that has been proven not to be worth the cost in money and privacy :
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/25/schneier.security.cameras/index.html
Everyone has a cell phone as proved by the police killing of an innocent train rider in Oakland.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/25/schneier.security.cameras/index.html
Everyone has a cell phone as proved by the police killing of an innocent train rider in Oakland.
Francesco Dal Bosco
Active member
Thank you Barry for this post. I think it's very important (expecially for photographers, artists and filmakers) to pay a constant attention to the copyright and trademark issue.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
And actually, your fine state, which used to be MY fine state until I escaped to VA,does NOT have the same laws as a lot over other states regarding permissions recording individuals.
In VA, only one party has to consent, (in pother words, the recording party) to legally record a conversation or interaction.
In MD, you don't have this, which is why you run into this kind of JBT thuggery:
Link to thuggery.
I strongly believe in the importance of a person controlling their own image, but definitely the security threat is ridiculous.
I do see some of each side, for the topic of cops and the like not wanting things filmed. First, the person their dealing with has privacy concerns. Second, cops sometimes have to do things that don't look good, but are necessary. People are hypersensitive to them as well. Not to say I'm defending the actions of all law enforcement agents, a huge number of them go to far and we give them too much power... but a huge number of cop watchers go to far as well, and just try to provoke the officer, getting in the way of them doing their job.
There was a documentary a while back about 'cop watch', I caught some of it on the public access channel. They had some clips of cop watch footage to indicate how important it is. I remember had had a dialog like this:
"Please stay back. You need to be on the other side of this sidewalk."
"It's my right to film your action!"
"Yes it is. I just need you to be a safe distance."
"Why don't you want this filmed? What are you going to do?"
"You are welcome to film this, just not from so close."
"Why are you getting so defensive? I'm sorry if I'm intimidating you..."
And it goes on like this. Clearly the guy with the camera was trying to be superior to the evil pig and start a fight... which makes the officers a bit untrusting when they see the next guy with a camera. So there's a give and take in this government agent/guy with a camera relationship.
I do see some of each side, for the topic of cops and the like not wanting things filmed. First, the person their dealing with has privacy concerns. Second, cops sometimes have to do things that don't look good, but are necessary. People are hypersensitive to them as well. Not to say I'm defending the actions of all law enforcement agents, a huge number of them go to far and we give them too much power... but a huge number of cop watchers go to far as well, and just try to provoke the officer, getting in the way of them doing their job.
There was a documentary a while back about 'cop watch', I caught some of it on the public access channel. They had some clips of cop watch footage to indicate how important it is. I remember had had a dialog like this:
"Please stay back. You need to be on the other side of this sidewalk."
"It's my right to film your action!"
"Yes it is. I just need you to be a safe distance."
"Why don't you want this filmed? What are you going to do?"
"You are welcome to film this, just not from so close."
"Why are you getting so defensive? I'm sorry if I'm intimidating you..."
And it goes on like this. Clearly the guy with the camera was trying to be superior to the evil pig and start a fight... which makes the officers a bit untrusting when they see the next guy with a camera. So there's a give and take in this government agent/guy with a camera relationship.
Shooting around Australia, the only place I ever have an issue is Sydney.
Incident 1 - Large format camera, after Id been shooting for about 40 mins, security guard approaches me and says youre not allowed to shoot here. I tell him Im sorry, but there's actually no law to prevent me from doing so. He then asked for my tapes. I said I dont shoot to tape and I also told him politely (as he was rather offensive), to check with one of his higher ups. And then I finished shooting, and walked off. He asked where I was going and I told him, Oh Im finished here. He said I had to wait, I said goodbye. Very open public area with a large number of people around.
Incident 2 - In Sydney for a location shoot. Day before shoot I had a few spare hours and decided to spend a few wlking around taking some nice pictures. Walking around snapping away and come across the Regent Theatre. A really nice theatre that runs some interesting weekend events etc. It had on the board out front "Japanese film fest". As I know a number of people who may be interested I took a snap for facebook. Im out on the street doing this, I have not stepped into, or never stepped into the premises. Secutriy guard comes running out - Get away your not allowed to take photos here. This guy was aggressive. I said, mate as long as Im out here on the street what Im doing is perfectly legal. He then told me if I take one more photo he'll confiscate my camera. Im thinking this guy is serious, he really thinks he can do this. I said honestly, you have no right to stop me. He then stepped up to me and said - get the f outta here now or Ill bust it. Apart from him being an insane person, I had taken my photo to my satisfaction and was happy to depart. About an hour later, I thought photo or not, I should have called the police.
Heres the worst part about incident 2 - I was taking a photo for facebook. I wanted to share it (and in the modern world thats advertising). When I got back home, I was in no mood to share anything I did call the theatre manager and ask him the agenda of their security guards and let him have a piece of my mind.
Incident 1 - Large format camera, after Id been shooting for about 40 mins, security guard approaches me and says youre not allowed to shoot here. I tell him Im sorry, but there's actually no law to prevent me from doing so. He then asked for my tapes. I said I dont shoot to tape and I also told him politely (as he was rather offensive), to check with one of his higher ups. And then I finished shooting, and walked off. He asked where I was going and I told him, Oh Im finished here. He said I had to wait, I said goodbye. Very open public area with a large number of people around.
Incident 2 - In Sydney for a location shoot. Day before shoot I had a few spare hours and decided to spend a few wlking around taking some nice pictures. Walking around snapping away and come across the Regent Theatre. A really nice theatre that runs some interesting weekend events etc. It had on the board out front "Japanese film fest". As I know a number of people who may be interested I took a snap for facebook. Im out on the street doing this, I have not stepped into, or never stepped into the premises. Secutriy guard comes running out - Get away your not allowed to take photos here. This guy was aggressive. I said, mate as long as Im out here on the street what Im doing is perfectly legal. He then told me if I take one more photo he'll confiscate my camera. Im thinking this guy is serious, he really thinks he can do this. I said honestly, you have no right to stop me. He then stepped up to me and said - get the f outta here now or Ill bust it. Apart from him being an insane person, I had taken my photo to my satisfaction and was happy to depart. About an hour later, I thought photo or not, I should have called the police.
Heres the worst part about incident 2 - I was taking a photo for facebook. I wanted to share it (and in the modern world thats advertising). When I got back home, I was in no mood to share anything I did call the theatre manager and ask him the agenda of their security guards and let him have a piece of my mind.
Oh wait Incident 3
Heres a funny one.
First two facts:
1/ Australian Beaches are held as public space. In Australia no individual is allowed to own the beach - so whilst here you may see many houses on the beach the beachfront is still public property.
2/ Australian surf life savers - patrol the beach and their directive is keep the beach safe for all users - and honestly they do a great job.
So when I needed to shoot a mid shot interview on the beach, I approached it with respect. It was off season, I moved down and well away from anyone (and the SLSC). As I passed one of the surf life savers - he YELLED AT ME - hey what do you think youre doing? I politely told him. He said something like no you must have permission. I told him, the law clearly states ... He said anyone who shoots here gets permission. This whole time he's yelling at me. It was then that the interviewee turned around, someone well known by all here , and said he did it often and that no one ever asked for permission to do such a simple shot (on the shoulder 5 minute shot). He toned his voice straight away and said he'd need to call someone. Anyway we left him with that. So as we're leaving he gets on his beech buggy thing and comes down to us and says he called someone and they said its ok. I said good because weve finished. Interviewee chuckled.
I have no problem when someone wants to protect public interest, but these security guards etc need to be told the correct law.
Heres a funny one.
First two facts:
1/ Australian Beaches are held as public space. In Australia no individual is allowed to own the beach - so whilst here you may see many houses on the beach the beachfront is still public property.
2/ Australian surf life savers - patrol the beach and their directive is keep the beach safe for all users - and honestly they do a great job.
So when I needed to shoot a mid shot interview on the beach, I approached it with respect. It was off season, I moved down and well away from anyone (and the SLSC). As I passed one of the surf life savers - he YELLED AT ME - hey what do you think youre doing? I politely told him. He said something like no you must have permission. I told him, the law clearly states ... He said anyone who shoots here gets permission. This whole time he's yelling at me. It was then that the interviewee turned around, someone well known by all here , and said he did it often and that no one ever asked for permission to do such a simple shot (on the shoulder 5 minute shot). He toned his voice straight away and said he'd need to call someone. Anyway we left him with that. So as we're leaving he gets on his beech buggy thing and comes down to us and says he called someone and they said its ok. I said good because weve finished. Interviewee chuckled.
I have no problem when someone wants to protect public interest, but these security guards etc need to be told the correct law.
Zissou
Well-known member
that happens a lot, police assuming one cannot shoot, or a particular person screaming bloody murder that you cannot shoot in a public place without their consent. ive tried explaining my rights and the laws, and found its better to just wait a few minutes and shoot again, or the next day. DC is really whack, so is NYC. I shoot a lot of 'NYC' footage in parts of rural NJ or NY or Philly instead and avoid the crap.
Ive never had a police officer approach me, but ive had a lot of random persons suddenly decide im breaking a phantom law, and ruin a shoot.
deltoidjohn
Veteran
Noel, I think it we're lucky that there's not the same level of hysteria over shooting in public places that you sometimes hear about in other countries. Unfortunately, we also do not have a bill or rights protecting our freedom as they do in the US. So a few sour incidents with enough publicity could easily result in drastic law changes which prohibit filming in public.
Just look as Bondi beach, for example. A few cases of kiddie-peepers hiding in the bushes and all of a sudden they passed new laws restricting cameras in the area.
Personally, I've never had any problems with law enforecement, except having to explain to devastated couples that "No, we're not allowed to have a wedding shoot anywhere in Brisbane's Southbank foreshore because it is a privately owned area and security actually do have the right to remove us from there and they are extremely heavy handed about it... yes, that includes the beach... yes that includes the botanical gardens... yes that includes the ampitheatre... yes that includes the jetty..."
Just look as Bondi beach, for example. A few cases of kiddie-peepers hiding in the bushes and all of a sudden they passed new laws restricting cameras in the area.
Personally, I've never had any problems with law enforecement, except having to explain to devastated couples that "No, we're not allowed to have a wedding shoot anywhere in Brisbane's Southbank foreshore because it is a privately owned area and security actually do have the right to remove us from there and they are extremely heavy handed about it... yes, that includes the beach... yes that includes the botanical gardens... yes that includes the ampitheatre... yes that includes the jetty..."
Yeah, John a privately owned is another matter altogether. Some people cant comprehend that either unfortunately. Its outside so it must be public. What about the walk trail along southbank? Is that privately owned as well?
Law enforcement officers have one of the most dangerous jobs in existence. The last thing anyone should do is add stress to a situation that can be handled with a cool head. An officer has no idea how someone might react when confronted. Why cause them stress? If they stop you or attempt to stop you, roll with it.
Maybe you don't get to continue shooting or lose footage that you've already shot. When you're sent on assignment, check first about clearance to shoot. Don't shoot if you don't have permission. Guerilla filmmaking is for kids.
If clearance to shoot is iffy before the fact, how are you going to deal with this issue when your show airs or screens? Unless of course you're just screening for mom and dad in the basement.
Maybe you don't get to continue shooting or lose footage that you've already shot. When you're sent on assignment, check first about clearance to shoot. Don't shoot if you don't have permission. Guerilla filmmaking is for kids.
If clearance to shoot is iffy before the fact, how are you going to deal with this issue when your show airs or screens? Unless of course you're just screening for mom and dad in the basement.
Martti Ekstrand
Veteran
You may dismiss your own freedom of speech this easily but not mine.
I had a serious issue in a small viallge which is frequented by westernes in India last February:
I was shooting with the HVX from inside a rikshaw on the street when a dirty fellow ( who looked like a beggar) stuck his head into the passenger area and asked if I had a permission, I told him this is open street and I dont need one, he then continued to say I do and talked in Telugu to the driver who after 1 minute drove off....
I shot for about 5 minutes when the cellphone of the rikshaw driver rang and we were told to stop: we were arrested by Indian Secret Service and the beggar was one of them!
I had no time to back up my material, they were in a motorbike behind us, we were arrested, jailed and my material was deleted of all cameras!
Reason given: my material could serve terrorists to peek out further bomb placements!
I told the chief: you can buy dvd´s here where you can see much more than what you deleted...
the pune bomb in German Bakery was just 10 days ago ....
after 7 hrs I was free with all cameras and equipment but the footage was gone! I was not allowed to shoot anymore material in the village!
From that day on I had 2 agents follow me at all times, felt like good old Stasi days.....
I was shooting with the HVX from inside a rikshaw on the street when a dirty fellow ( who looked like a beggar) stuck his head into the passenger area and asked if I had a permission, I told him this is open street and I dont need one, he then continued to say I do and talked in Telugu to the driver who after 1 minute drove off....
I shot for about 5 minutes when the cellphone of the rikshaw driver rang and we were told to stop: we were arrested by Indian Secret Service and the beggar was one of them!
I had no time to back up my material, they were in a motorbike behind us, we were arrested, jailed and my material was deleted of all cameras!
Reason given: my material could serve terrorists to peek out further bomb placements!
I told the chief: you can buy dvd´s here where you can see much more than what you deleted...
the pune bomb in German Bakery was just 10 days ago ....
after 7 hrs I was free with all cameras and equipment but the footage was gone! I was not allowed to shoot anymore material in the village!
From that day on I had 2 agents follow me at all times, felt like good old Stasi days.....
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