taboo kickstarter question.

[adkimery]

I'm pretty sure running around in a bra and undies, and having a coin operated boy nearby, helps in the Kickstarter arena... Although, for guys, probably looking like a young Tim Curry would be a major enhancement... don't know if the Meatloaf type would work out as well... a nearly bare bear in a brassiere... ok maybe there's hope... at least in some market segment...

Previous 'old media' success and an installed fan base certainly helps though AP has spent a lot of social media hours cultivating said fan base (most of which is made up of females if I'd have to venture a guess).

Who's talkin' about "studio" or "blockbuster" pictures here??:huh:
I'm referring to private investors of independent films.

Misunderstanding on my part. Even with private investor(s) involved that doesn't mean you'll get enough to do what you want and KS can still be a way to augment funds. Going back to Video Game High School again, that's what they did.

We had already had a tentative budget locked in place secured through private investment, but it wasn’t enough to execute the script to the degree of production design and polish that we wanted. The purpose of the Kickstarter was therefore to raise additional money for the project, as well as to start to generate excitement and anticipation for the series itself.

They just started a new KS campaign with a goal of $636,000. This was their budget for season 1 so my guess is they are trying to get the whole budget covered via KS and avoid having to split returns with private investors.

 

[Gillvane]

I like the kickstarter model better than the "investor" model whatever the SEC rules may be.

You design a kitty gravy boat that vomits gravy. Is it worth getting it mass produced? Why not sell it first (on kickstarter), THEN produce it if enough people are willing to buy it? Afterwards the production costs are paid for (that's why you do the kickstarter) and you can keep on selling the gravy boat and making a profit.

Same with your movie. Instead of investors, people buy your download or DVD, and if enough of them do you have enough money to make the movie. After that, you can keep selling it or make any distribution deal you can get. There are no investors to split any profits with.

Plus, all you have to do with a successful kickstarter is make a movie. Maybe it will be good, maybe it will be crap, but if you give people the movie you've fulfilled your kickstarter (plus all the other "schwag" like posters, meets with the director, names in the credits as exec producer, etc.). What the heck, i've paid to see plenty of crappy movies from Hollywood, I'm not going to be terribly upset if I get a crappy movie from a kickstarter.

But with investors, sure they know it's a risk, but they aren't going to be very happy if they lose all their money. You don't just have to deliver a movie to make them happy, you have to deliver a profit.

 

[j]

> you have to deliver a profit.

Uh... yeah. That's kinda the plan.

 

[Doc Bernard]

My question is if KS goes after an Investor model.....what will be their liability? Investments require "due diligence" and there are numerous lawsuits going after investment offerers that have shown that the investment money was misused, and we all know film. Unless it is run like a business....the amount of opportunities for accusations of mis-appropriations is HUGE. Spend too much on crafty....lawsuit. Spend too much on camera rental, not enough on sound....lawsuit. Paying yourself or just reimbursing your expenses when no one else gets reimbursed.....lawsuit. If the film does not show a profit......lawsuit.

Yes, having an investor/s brings in needed funds. But people need to get the dollar signs out of their eyes and understand with an actual investor comes SERIOUS fiduciary responsibility. And immaculate records. So....we are back to how a film has to be run like a business, first and foremost.

Let be realists here. How many films have members made that went nowhere? Brought in NO profits, and really ended up showing a loss....some, a complete loss. An investor is not going to just accept a loss....they will want to recoup that money however they can......including going after the filmmaker that lead them to believe it would show a profit. If you showed fiduciary responsibility and due diligence (yep, those nasty legal terms again) and can PROVE it......maybe you walk away, after legal fees and such. But if they can prove anything amiss.........you are done financially and otherwise.

So yes, the investor model may work for some.....but it may absolutely destroy starry-eyed filmmakers that really don't understand the way this business works. You can love the artistic all you want...more power to you. But when you inject business into it by soliciting actual investors......it's no longer about the art. It's about the money. Because that is what business is about.

Personally, I think this will be a bad thing for filmmakers. Because too many of them have no idea about business and just focus on the art.

 

[adkimery]

The last I read, and I don't keep close tabs on KS by any means, was that the creators of KS had no interest of moving towards and investor model in part because of the points you bring up, Doc. It adds a whole other layer of complexity to the process and opens KS itself up to more liability than they currently have.

 

[Gord.T]

Great posts here. As usual I've been educated.

asking what you get in a return on a collaborative site/forum is a bit silly - what do any of us get in return for posting here or helping out? ...
Adam

I've never been above asking a silly or stupid question with the philosophy being "You only ask a stupid question once."

[note: I wasn't singling out dvxuser or it's members. I was speaking specifically to KS.
I've done a lot of collaborating here in the past too by offering my time working on post related work on various projects.]

At least now I understand the situation better.
The investment model does appear to be more complicated to implement than I had suspected what with the legal aspects of it and everything.

So, the KS system does work if people want to donate financial assistance. As long as everyone is happy I guess it's working.

 

[Altus_Libera]

Great posts here. As usual I've been educated.



I've never been above asking a silly or stupid question with the philosophy being "You only ask a stupid question once."

[note: I wasn't singling out dvxuser or it's members. I was speaking specifically to KS.
I've done a lot of collaborating here in the past too by offering my time working on post related work on various projects.]

At least now I understand the situation better.
The investment model does appear to be more complicated to implement than I had suspected what with the legal aspects of it and everything.

So, the KS system does work if people want to donate financial assistance. As long as everyone is happy I guess it's working.

Well and with crowdfunding it's not actually donations in the strictest sense. For anything over $10 you're usually purchasing an item. I've donated to lots of indiegogo and kickstarter campaigns and I always get a CD or comic book or miniature figurine, etc.

If it was someone just asking me to give them money, yeah -- I probably wouldn't go out of my way to do that.

But if you're selling your DVD for $25 or your comic book for $5 + shipping? I don't have an issue with that.

 

[David W. Jones]

It would be interesting to see something like this….. Kickstart project to pay for kids law school education.

Contribute X amount and get legal representation when kid graduates.

 

[keylight]

A lawyer can pre-sell his/her legal services (think retainer fee) but the kid isn't a lawyer. Violation of lots of ethics rules too.

It would be interesting to see something like this…..

Kickstart project to pay for kids law school education.

Contribute X amount and get legal representation when kid graduates.

 

[Gillvane]

A lawyer can pre-sell his/her legal services (think retainer fee) but the kid isn't a lawyer. Violation of lots of ethics rules too.

We already have a version of that but it works in reverse. You get reimbursed for law school tuition if you practice in the non-profit sector for so many years. Several of those programs already exist.

 

[heri]

Kickstarter is really about donations.

The new JOBS ACT in the US makes it possible to do equity crowdfunding which means you get a share of the new company. Kickstarter won't go there but I am sure there will be new sites that are going to offer the service.

As an aside, I think Kickstarter is great when the filmmaker provides rewards such as a DVD, especially limited editions. It's like getting the movie before it even gets into stores. Great for fans.

 

[keylight]

We already have a version of that but it works in reverse. You get reimbursed for law school tuition if you practice in the non-profit sector for so many years. Several of those programs already exist.

Sounds like a very nice option.

 

[Gord.T]

I like the kickstarter model better than the "investor" model whatever the SEC rules may be.

You design a kitty gravy boat that vomits gravy. Is it worth getting it mass produced? Why not sell it first (on kickstarter), THEN produce it if enough people are willing to buy it? Afterwards the production costs are paid for (that's why you do the kickstarter) and you can keep on selling the gravy boat and making a profit.

Same with your movie. Instead of investors, people buy your download or DVD, and if enough of them do you have enough money to make the movie. After that, you can keep selling it or make any distribution deal you can get. There are no investors to split any profits with.

Plus, all you have to do with a successful kickstarter is make a movie. Maybe it will be good, maybe it will be crap, but if you give people the movie you've fulfilled your kickstarter (plus all the other "schwag" like posters, meets with the director, names in the credits as exec producer, etc.). What the heck, i've paid to see plenty of crappy movies from Hollywood, I'm not going to be terribly upset if I get a crappy movie from a kickstarter.

But with investors, sure they know it's a risk, but they aren't going to be very happy if they lose all their money. You don't just have to deliver a movie to make them happy, you have to deliver a profit.

Gillvane. I know you better than that. -Beers.

 

[Finn Yarbrough]

Guys, Guys, Guys-- it's not that complicated.
If you look at the Kickstarter campaigns that actually succeed, almost all of them are modeled after advanced orders of some product. Especially popular are games and other engineered trinkets, but this applies to films and albums as well. The element of altruism is there, if you care for that, but the bottom line with successfully structured campaigns is that you get what you pay for. The sweet spot for this seems to be in the $20-$60 range (lower for digital goods), where the campaigns are only "raising money" towards the end product, which is what creates the "rewards." Really, donations might as well just be called "orders."

 

[Gillvane]

Guys, Guys, Guys-- it's not that complicated.
If you look at the Kickstarter campaigns that actually succeed, almost all of them are modeled after advanced orders of some product. Especially popular are games and other engineered trinkets, but this applies to films and albums as well. The element of altruism is there, if you care for that, but the bottom line with successfully structured campaigns is that you get what you pay for. The sweet spot for this seems to be in the $20-$60 range (lower for digital goods), where the campaigns are only "raising money" towards the end product, which is what creates the "rewards." Really, donations might as well just be called "orders."

I agree. Certainly this is how the Digital Bolex worked and people are finally getting their cameras. I think the other rule of thumb is you don't create demand with a kickstarter. You already have a fanbase or a product design people are interested in and want. Kickstarter just makes it easy to collect the order money. Like Veronica Mars. They already had a fanbase, and kickstarter was an easy way to collect advance orders from the fans.