Sync sound with Super 16

D

darkaydix

Member
Haven't found too much in the forums about this.

Director is going to use an Aaton, but I'm not sure if it will have time code abilities or not (depends on the model and serial). I know we can use a clapper and have that visual aspect and then the spike on the audio (and written logs of what is going on) but is there a better way? The sound has to be a double system and cannot be also recorded to camera. Sadly.

Suggestions? Has anyone had experience with doing sound and Super 16??

Thanks in advance..
 
Film 24 frame per second?

= 30ND timecode for audio.
Either 48k or 48.048k depending on what post wants.

Because the film will be slowed down ever so slightly to get a framerate of 23.976
the audio will be slowed down in post as well so it stays in sync.

That is why while 48K is the standard sample rate, some post houses prefer 48.048k so
when they slow it down the new sample rate is right at 48k.

If you don't know what post wants and you cant find out
the standard is 48k


Edited to add some stuff other than timecode rates:

Obviously I mentioned the rates because that is another way to go about doing it.
Using a timecode recorder and timecode slate where in telecine (or the editing program if you're doing mos telecine)
you freeze frame on the timecode slate on any frame..
punch those numbers into the program basicly giving the FILM that timecode at that spot (its called alt timecode or something like that in FCP)
you then find the audio file with the same timecode (should be visible in the bin in the meta data)
and you tell it to lock the 2 clips using that timecode.
 
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Thanks for the reply Rippie.

Yeah, it's going to be in 24 fps.
According to the director, after a chat last night, it will stay at a TRUE 24 fps even after processing into video. Is this correct?? He's working on post with another guy, and I'm thinking 48k.

Forgive my naivety, but when you're talking about using timecode in an editing program, you're talking about syncing up the video and audio in post--so after the metadata on audio already exists, you'd just go in and punch the numbers for each take?? So using a digital slate on set and having a timecode generator for that and then for the recorder so that you're even more spot on than with just the clapper visual and spike? I knew about the possibility of jamming, and having that in the metadata of the audio file. I just have yet to work with timecode... Apologies for not quite understanding.

The director doesn't seem worried at all and is fine with just a clapper. I'm not, however. And I might end up editing some sound, so I want it to be easy (read: easier).
 
darkaydix said:
Forgive my naivety, but when you're talking about using timecode in an editing program, you're talking about syncing up the video and audio in post--so after the metadata on audio already exists, you'd just go in and punch the numbers for each take?? So using a digital slate on set and having a timecode generator for that and then for the recorder so that you're even more spot on than with just the clapper visual and spike? I knew about the possibility of jamming, and having that in the metadata of the audio file. I just have yet to work with timecode... Apologies for not quite understanding.

The director doesn't seem worried at all and is fine with just a clapper. I'm not, however. And I might end up editing some sound, so I want it to be easy (read: easier).
Click to expand...

Plenty of big budget movies to this day still don't use timecode (slates, recorders)
and only use a clapper. If thats what your director wants I would just give it to him.

It doesn't sound like you're the one doing the post work on this
so I would definitely call them and find out how they want you to proceed.
If you ending using timecode you'll want your recorder set up at
30ND, either 48k or 48.048 as mentioned above.

From there they can figure out what they are doing with it depending on
what they are doing with the video side of it.

As far as your question about sync'ing via timecode its no more accurate
just faster. From what I hear from telecine people they end up quickly
checking to see if the sticks match each time as well.
 
There isn't going to be TC out of the camera, though Anton may have a weird edgecode that kind sorta does the same thing? Anyway it's safe to assume that there is no TC with the film and so not much reason for you to use it other than, as Ripple said, i the telecine folks want it. Unless the director is going to go back to film then at some point he will be changing speed. But he may be confused about "24p" and actual 24 fps. Talk to post they are the ones who need to deal with it.


However your posting here so, in my experience, it's quite possible that this is a very low budget shoot and they don't really have their plan together and so you can't talk to post since they haven't gotten there yet. I'm doing post now on a shoot that I would know nothing about if they hadn't shot part of it in my house. They did have an experienced UMP but he hadn't managed to get them to firm up any of the post till after the shoot. They didn't have a picture editor till weeks after they wrapped! So while you should talk to the telecine house (they probably do have that set up) there may be nobody slated to sound post yet. So I would go with 48 unless the telencine asks for something else. Don't work about TC but do make sure that EVERY take has a visual AND sound slate. And make sure someone is taking notes. If your the mixer and boom op it's probably not you but someone should write down what take goes to what sound file # or name. If you hand sound reports to post they will think fondly of you.
 
Hey again Noiz, thank you twice.

Yes, it is a low budget film. The Aaton, from what we found, will not have TC so there's no point... I want to write down what is happening and when. Is there a good/efficient logging system that you've found??? But yes, there's no need for TC (so it seems) and logging will be best along with just slating as we go :/ I just want it to be as easy as possible for post (especially if I might be on it).

Thanks again!!!
 
darkaydix said:
The Aaton, from what we found, will not have TC so there's no point... (especially if I might be on it).
Click to expand...

Please realize that just because the camera doesn't have time code doesn't
mean there is no point.

The time code slate shows the same exact numbers as the audio
recorder so basicly in the end instead of the camera having time code
on the footage in metadata like in video cameras, that time code is
now a visual thing on the footage.

One extra step in post where they freeze the film frame on the time code
slate, and punch in those numbers in they have now given the film a "time code".

That is the entire purpose for having a time code slate.
If a video camera has time code you could just jam the audio recorder
and the camera together and never need a time code slate.


Yes you don't NEED to use time code to sync film and audio
but I didn't want anyone reading this to think just because film doesn't
have time code on set doesn't make time code it obsolete.
 
Raster said:
Not to jack this thread but I'd be interested to read what you guys think of this jigger. If you had access to an iPad or even an iPhone .. for $4.50 wouldn't this be a shoe in?

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dslr-slate/id374241045?mt=8

http://www.twitvid.com/AEV68
Click to expand...

For marking down scene and take numbers sure.
But the timecode is absolutely meaningless.


Well I suppose you could use it to sync the video of 2 cameras together
if they shot the "slate" at the same time.
But for sync'ing audio its absolutely worthless.
 
First the iPad thing. I have one for the iPhone that is similar. Neither as far as I know outputs LTC out say the headphone jack so you can't jam sync anything and thus TC is "soft" at best. But a big part of this comes down to what you expect/need from the slate. In "big" films they are telecineing a daily "mix" to a work print (may just be digitizing these days? - I'm five years out of date on the big workflow). But that is for the picture editor. Sound is transfered from the original tapes, DVD's etc based on the EDL from the NLE (event list from the picture edit). Traditionally this was all done by scene and take and by ear. With valid TC you can automate the flow somewhat using auto assemblers, but it's not all that much faster than syncing the slate and counting frames This isn't manual, once you "lock" the sound and pict you just go to xxx and grab the bit you want. That is done automatically based on the EDL after you get the two in sync by the slate. TC in theory automates this. I say in theory because you still have to get the right media loaded and you have to check as you go because a TC glitch can send you to hell fast. So it is very much a workflow thing. If you post is set up for TC then you should give it to them if poss. But if it's not then it's a bit of a wank. There is no downside to using TC IF it isn't costing you time and/or money so if it's easy go for it. But if post isn't going to use it then I would spend my time/money on things that will help the post more.

There are workflows that are very TC centric and if your doing that then it becomes a priority so YMMV.

In this the "brave new (old) world" of file based post, files don't have TC really, they have a TC stamp at the start. Old world analog you could actually sync with TC all you can do now is start at the "same" place and hope everything is at the same speed.

SO, the iPad slates can be useful because A) they look cool so maybe they will actually get used! and B) if your going old school (as in film or DSLR) that is probably good enough. With a DSLR and a file based recorder if you set your Time Of Day of all of them to the iPad (since it's TOD is actually based on something fairly accurate). Then your slates will be very close to the TC stamps on all your files. This makes it very easy to get the right clips together. After that your going to have to actually sync the clapper by eye/ear or use PluralEyes. Unless everyone is locked together with tri-level sync (assuming gear capable of that) TC isn't nec. going to be dead on and your going to have to adjust in post anyway. The DVX100A for instance was a bit notorious for transferring it's sound a frame+ out of sync so you Always have to resync.

And the other big plus for the iPhone/Pad slate (the one I have anyway) is that you can type script notes etc and send the take list to FCP where FCP can use the info to either batch capture from tape based media or transfer from non tape media into FCP AND it will attach the slate info including notes to the metadata. Not a sound thing but huge for picture.

RE: logging. If someone is going to have a Mac laptop around you might look into BoomRecorder. It does great sound reports. The $20 version would be all you need and it can jam sync (if your using TC). You would have to record at least one channel (I think) to generate takes etc. but? The other thing is the iPhone slate I have will let whoever is handling it take notes and give star ratings for picture and sound for each take. On the iPhone that is a great idea in need of a keyboard but on the iPad it might work.

Cheers
SK
 
When using a timecode slate with film, do you use 24fps 23.98fps or if going to an NTSC video format, 29.97? Would that be drop frame or non-drop frame? The last time I did sync sound on film it was posted on film, so audio and visual slates were the only thing we used. I have used timecode slates for audio play back on music videos shot on film, but the time code was set to the audio master, already on video, and we used, if memory serves correct, 29.97 fps DF.
 
David G. Smith said:
When using a timecode slate with film, do you use 24fps 23.98fps or if going to an NTSC video format, 29.97? Would that be drop frame or non-drop frame? The last time I did sync sound on film it was posted on film, so audio and visual slates were the only thing we used. I have used timecode slates for audio play back on music videos shot on film, but the time code was set to the audio master, already on video, and we used, if memory serves correct, 29.97 fps DF.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned above
for 24fps film
you use 30fps ND on the recorder, and the timecode slate is there to
have the exact same timecode as the audio recorder.

When they pull the film down to 23.98
the audio would then be pulled down by the same amount making it 29.97 (which is interchangeable with 23.976)

If they keep the film at 24fps throughout post then your audio would remain at 30.
 
Rippie said:
As I mentioned above
for 24fps film
you use 30fps ND on the recorder, and the timecode slate is there to
have the exact same timecode as the audio recorder.

When they pull the film down to 23.98
the audio would then be pulled down by the same amount making it 29.97 (which is interchangeable with 23.976)

If they keep the film at 24fps throughout post then your audio would remain at 30.
Click to expand...

Ok. So if you then keep your visual framerate consistent through out the post process (After transfer), such as in your NLE and what ever audio apps you use, then the audio will also be consistent also. Any framerate conversions after picture and sound lock won't matter at all (as far as sync goes). Got it, thanks.
 
The latest update of the slate app I have will sync to external TC. So in theory this is a very affordable smart slate.
 
Noiz2 said:
The latest update of the slate app I have will sync to external TC. So in theory this is a very affordable smart slate.
Click to expand...

Yea but how accurate?
I know ambient and denecke and the other major players
put a LOT of effort and money into making their clocks as accurate as possible.

I just cant believe an iphone is going to have a clock
that holds frame accurate sync and if each take is out by a different
amount of frames that would be a nightmare.

Hey if somehow they did it..fantastic.
I would just need to see some tests done before I'd believe it.


Now if the ipad and that app can IMPORT timecode from an external source I'm sold.

Attach a Denecke Sb-3 to it
or a new Zaxcom ERX ifb/timecode box to the ipad
and have reliable timecode fed to the Ipad display?

Could be an interesting alternative. (if you actually trust the 2nd AC on a job)
 
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Here's the link Movie*Slate

They just upped the price and the external sync is a $49 in ap purchase. But it will then sync to whatever. It is probably pretty stable since the computer (iPhone) needs really stable clocks to operate so it's just keeping track of that counter. But?
Also it will let you play a song in the iTunes library with In/Out points sunk to the clapper. Music video folks may really love this.
 
OFF TOPIC: iPhone/iPad slates are quite bad... I had to watch 30-300 seconds per take on a recent short of this dude holding an iPhone it being about 1:20secs off the global clip time... traveling continually from clip to clip. - It was utterly useless - I synced the 8 channel sound devices output and the 7D/5D footage using Pluralise the ones it could not get, I had trouble doing sync by hand since that software is not a deneke slate, nor did it provide any acurate visual/acoustic signal, thing makes a clapping sound and blinks orange, but between frames.

OP: Go with Lexan dry erase, with 6 primary colors on it. That will be more handy during telecine than any iPad/iPhone slate (best-light/one-light..).

I could see them being useful if they are a source for the boom-box during a music video shoot, so you know where in the song you are during and after filming, using an RF transmitter to FM on the boom box I guess... that's about it. Burning super 16mm film on watching those things at 20c per foot.... not recommended.

WAY MORE OFF TOPIC: iPhone 3/iPAD/iPhone 4 have very high latency with all exterior inputs, like a SoundBlaster card with a 4096 buffer, its absolutely impossible for those devices to have any accurate sync signal fed to them to be output to screen via software. I'd have better luck writing a fast TC output timer in JavaScript for the web then for those devices.
 
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To stay OT. The Slate app (and there are a bunch so quality will probably vary) is being used as a dumb slate so any "between frames" issue (if it were really between frames you wouldn't have seen it...) is going to be the same as a traditional slate. It is also not sending ANY sync signal so if you can't post sync it has nothing to do with the slate and everything to do with the media, like they weren't being clocked at the same speed. Latency if it's a known value can be compensated for in the software so it doesn't nec follow that the sync would be off. And were not talking try level syn here anyway so it's never going to 100%. BUT we are also talking FILM so the variance in film speed is going to be greater than just about anything else in the scenario. The big offset your talking about is because nobody sunc the two devices. If they didn't do a sync between the audio recorder and the camera then those won't be correct either, but I wouldn't blame the recorder because the operator didn't set the clock correctly.

In the app I linked to how long the slate seq is is completely user selectable. THe option to have various pieces of info show on sequential screens after the clap is so it's more readable. You can turn that all off and you can change the sound and even the visuals. If they were using it as designed you got a log sheet that let you batch import with metadata while you had some coffee instead of slogging through it by hand. If they didn't then blaming the software is a little like blaming a screwdriver because you had a hard time driving nails with it.

That said on the iPhone this is a slate of last resort. It's way too small to be practical as an everyday tool. On the iPad that should be a different story. The test will be on productions with people who know what they are doing and really use it. It may well end up being fatally flawed, but till I hear from some folks who actually did things right and still had problems I'm optimistic.

AS cool as PluralEyes is I'm a little confused about what the real benefit is. It takes very little time to sync in FCP. Your always going to have to tune that in an audio app if you really want dead on sync since FCP works in frames. So IF PluralEyes is doing subframe syncing that would be a plus I guess. But if your doing a real audio post they are going to check tune that sync anyway. I'm probably missing something since it is very popular.
 
Noiz2: I don't know, but for my time if the source material has a reference audio track I'd rather lob that into Pluralise and have a cup of coffee, FCP's sub-frame manual sync where you shift-skate the in-point for the audio to video track is tenacious/tedious (unless I'm missing something) - minor fix-ups for distance of camera vs. distance of boom after running Purlalise.

If it takes very little time to sync in FCP for you - I wonder from what sources, some are more manageable then others - I've found it to be equivalent of watching paint dry for a long time (yes I sync at sub-frame level on the inital), then link media then drag it back out into media management for initial assembly.

But as I've stressed before a good 2nd AC is a good thing, it seems that the Clapper or iPhone (in the case I describe) is always given to some person who is completely detached from being in any type of production, so I get to watch them do their thing every take, the iPhone slate killed me... that was the most annoying to watch :-).

Specifically for this app (and there are like 10), is the "beep beep beep, flash - fake clapper sound". that's 4 seconds long. There are other problems, shot numbers auto increment, slate illegible (as you've pointed out the iPad is a better idea)..

But after watching about 4 hours of this iPhone app, I vowed, and so did the director of this thing, to avoid at all costs. Dry erase lexan + not a real 2nd AC - is much better than iPhone slate + not a real 2nd ac. Since they also need to know how to operate an iPhone/iPad let alone
just slam two sticks together.

So overall you're right on being hopeful that people with a CLUE will get it right in the end, but on an overall low-budget production level its a major slowdown, esp on productions where reference audio is being recorded by the cameras already (as in non-film, ENG etc...)

WAY OT: The iphone app (possibly not the one you're recommending) continually drifted from the sound devices 8 channel "iso". the first shot of the first day was 1;21 off, the drift was not uniform, it looked like someone made an attempt to "sync" it initially, day 2 it was about 90 seconds off and went all the way to 30 minutes end of day two and so on.

TO OP: My recommendation for film is still is Lexan with primary colors (instead of black and white pattern) for super 16mm to telecine, since chances are that slate will be given to the least clued person on the set.

EDIT: Noiz2 sorry I take that back, that is _exactly_ the app you linked to, that is what I watched the beginning of for 4 hours, that is it... That was the reason I was left wondering why it's TC sort-a matched the Sound Devices TC, unlike zero-hour etc.... Most likely it was improperly configured etc.. but that is one annoying app on default settings to watch in an edit bay... "beeep beep beeep - orange flash - clap".
 
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DJDecay said:
TO OP: My recommendation for film is still is Lexan with primary colors (instead of black and white pattern) for super 16mm to telecine,
Click to expand...
For what its worth it seems that telecine folks would rather have
black and white sticks compared to colored if given the choice.

I really don't think its that big of a deal, nor do I know their reasons
but since you mentioned it twice I thought I'd put it out there.

Mine are colored and obviously never a complaint.
 
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