Switching from HVX200 to HMC40. Insane?

MrPolarBare

MrPolarBare

Well-known member
I've had a HVX200 since it's launch, and now thinking about moving to a HMC40 or GH1. I've read a million comparisons on here, but just wanted to state my case and make sure I'm not insane (it just feels weird trading in a more expensive camera for a cheaper one).

99% of the time...
  • I shoot 720/60P (playback at 24fps for slow-mo effect)
  • I shoot outdoor action watersports
  • I only film in good lighting situations
  • I don't use the audio track
  • I prefer to shoot higher shutters around 1/250 to 1/500 for crisper images
  • My video will be delivered in HD (and lower) on the web
  • I color-correct my clips

Here is a YouTube clip showing what 99% of my work consists of...

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I AGREE


PLEASE NOTE: We don't deliver our video via YouTube. We have our own player on our site, and we encode our videos at a higher bitrate. The YouTube video above is just so you can get an idea of the type of work I mainly do.

It seems like I won't be missing much by downgrading to the HMC40 (for my purposes). There aren't many threads comparing the HMC40 to the HVX200 (most compare to the HMC150), I'm assuming that I'll also be getting a sharper image and probably about the same low-light/noise performance as my HVX?

The smaller lightweight formfactor and cheaper memory cards seem to be a large benefit. (I'm not dealing with clients, so the size of my "equipment" isn't going to impress anyone). Also, the extra coin in my pocket when selling the HVX isn't bad either.

Currently, I have 2 4GB P2 cards, which obviously ain't enough (it's hell), and figure I'm at somewhat of a crossroads. I can either invest more into P2, or jump platforms.

I just would like to hear a "you're not crazy comment" before making the switch from my HVX. I would really like to hear a "I think you'll prefer the HMC40 to the HVX" comment.

Also, I'm wondering as a video camera only, will the HMC40 obviously outperform the GH1 for my purposes, or would it be pretty even (I notice the GH1 records at a lower bitrate, but I'm delivering mainly web content, so I wonder if it even matters that much).

I know a lot of this has been covered on here, but I just need reassurance :)
 
Low light performance will be much lower; put your existing HVX on ND1 to see what it's going to be like. Which won't necessarily be a problem for you outdoors, of course.

Frankly, while the thought of trading in an HVX for an HMC40 sounds a little crazy on the surface of it, your particular use might be one where it makes sense. I'd just be a little worried about the potential for jiggly jello from the rolling shutter, but seeing as you're using 720/60 it's going to be better than in any other mode.

You can expect a significant increase in sharpness in your footage, in bright light, as compared to the HVX. But you may be in too bright light for the HMC40 to sit comfortably, so consider getting an external ND filter. The ND filter in the HMC40 isn't quite strong enough, in my opinion, so for what you're doing you'd probably want maybe a 2-stop ND filter.

The HMC40's codec is substantially more robust than the GH1's. The GH1 makes pretty fantastic 720/60p, but I think you'll find that the HMC40's is better, it'll probably be sharper, and a real video camera beats a stills camera when used for video purposes; you may appreciate simple little niceties like a power zoom, which an SLR just can't do. The GH1 is the most videocam-like of the SLRs, but being "like one" and "being one" aren't quite the same thing. If it was me, doing what you're doing, and I had any camera in my stable to choose from, I'd probably pick the HMC40 over either of the SLRs, but it really depends on how the jello works out for you; if it's jello-ish you might be better off sticking with the HVX or an HMC150 or other CCD camera.

But I think you'll probably be fine with the HMC40.
 
Thanks Barry.

After searching for some of the "jello" footage, it seemed to be at an acceptable level for me. As shown in my footage, I try to minimize camera shake as much as possible, and I am never running around or walking while shooting.

Thanks for your input.

Also, would increasing the shutter-speed help combat the weak ND filter? I'm shooting at 60p, so the stuttering of motion isn't nearly as bad as it would be on a 24p shot (that lacks the appropriate amount of motion blur).
 
Jello wise you should be ok, i shoot with a CMOS Canon HF10 50i from the back of a Jetski on the ocean and it's acceptable. You're on a more stable platform (boat) and flat inland waters so that combined with 720p 60fps you will walk it in.

I also have HNC 152 (thanks Barry for the Book, just arrived) but still building a housing. I may also get the HMC 40 because of the small physical size. You will need to mount the HMC 40 in a rig as it's size makes hard to hold steady.

I agree with Barry 1/250 and 60fps helps overcome the jello.

Cheers Rambo
 
Also be prepared for a change in post with your workflow. Going from P2 to AVCHD may be a bit of a challenge - a computer upgrade might be needed. However, I think you can still get Edius Neo as a bundle offer if you order the HMC40 soon - That should help out with editing the AVCHD files without transcoding. Got to think about media storage, archiving/backup and how quickly of a turn around time is needed for each completed project.
 
My planned workflow will be to bring in each clip for color-correction, and render them out as H.264 MP4's. This file will work natively on a Premiere CS4 Sony XDCAM EX timeline. This also gives me a format that I am able to assign keywords to in Adobe Bridge.

Currently, I have a huge P2 contents folder with all of my clips. I have a second folder of lower-res MOV's, which share the same name as the P2 clip they represent. I then tag the MOV's in Bridge with keywords. So basically, I find the clip I want in Bridge quickly using the keyword tags, then I import it into Premiere. Then I unlink the videos, and relink the P2 versions in their place.

I realize that crushing (damaging) my videos down to a 6mbps H.264 MP4 right off the bat might be insane, but my final delivery is on the web, and eliminating steps out of my workflow (creating additional preview files for tagging in Bridge) is a nice bonus. Also, the file size would be approx 1/7th the size of the same P2 clip. I am having trouble seeing the benefit of keeping native files around (for my purposes). Also, being able to view the MP4 widely in almost any media player is a nice convenience.

If someone has a better solution, I'm all ears... I haven't been able to find a software package that allows me to easily tag videos (professional formats) with keywords, except for these extremely expensive proprietary storage systems. We're on Windows 7 over here.
 
Oh, and I'm practically blind in my right eye, and I've read that the eyepiece isn't interchangeable. So I guess I'll be cutting the eyepiece with scissors then to make it work with my left eye.
 
Slowing 60p down to 24p would give you the same (or similar) jello effect as 24p, wouldn't it?

You would be watching 24fps and see the jello easier I am thinking...

I guess the shutter would be quicker helping out some too... for me jello and low light has concerned me when considering purchasing the hmc40.
 
Jello is due to how fast the chip scans the scene. In 60p mode it operates much faster than it does in 24p mode.

So while yes, you'd notice jello more if you slowed footage down because you'd be looking at each frame longer, the simple fact of the matter is that there is less jello inherent in the footage because the chip scans faster at the faster frame rate.

Shutter has absolutely no effect on the amount of jello present in the footage.
 
Thanks for all of the advice. I just purchased the HMC40, and a bunch of goodies to go along with it. I used Bill Me Later for payment, so I have 6 months no interest, giving me a period to keep both cameras and make sure I am going to like the switch, before selling my HVX. Thanks again everyone.
 
Barry_Green said:
Shutter has absolutely no effect on the amount of jello present in the footage.
Click to expand...

I always thought that too Barry, but since i changed my shutter to 1/250 on a Canon HF10 from 1/120, there is a huge improvement, actually it's gone from being a problem to almost not detectable.

I'm wondering if somehow there is a change in write or read speed or other factors involved when a higher shutter is selected. Maybe less load on the CPU??

I'm hoping for the same results on a Panasonic POVCam (AG-HMR10 AVCCAM recorder and AG-HCK10) that i'm about to purchase. Have you tested this cam at all Barry?

aghmr10avccamrecorderwithhck10.a.jpg


Cheers Rambo
 
Barry_Green said:
I haven't used that camera, no. I got to use the deck for a day, but not the camera.
Click to expand...

Any thoughts on the Deck? I'm just waiting for a demo unit from Panasonic before i purchase both. Expecting the head to be simlilar to HMC 40

Cheers Rambo
 
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