Sun competing Led?

morgan_moore said:
I wish I could just get them all in a line up.

Mr Mole is happy to come to my studio and demo.
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Hive are pretty good about trying to get samples of their lights into peoples hands by connecting users with local dealers and offering tests and trials of their lights. I'm not sure how their support is in the UK for that but I bet if you contacted them at the very least they would set you up with a test at the local Hive dealer/rental shop. I really like the ability to tweak the daylight on the Hive lights to warm it up or cool it down to match the existing daylight at that time of day. I like a little warmer daylight on talent personally.

The Fillex stuff looks great colour wise but I always find they seem underpowered for the spec/price
 
Agreed.

Hive has offered me their lights on numerous occasions but something else always gets in the way for me to test drive them.
 
So I got hold of some lights. What to say?

First how to test them!

I decided to try and make a 'brightness test'.

So what is bright?

I decided that it was illuminating an 8ft wide 'target' shot at FstopX at 1/50 800ISO (nikon D600 6k raw processed in capture one)

Clearly one must add a tolerance (ie margin for error) as the camera may have inconsistent shutter speed and the Tstop value may vary.. we also metered with a cine meter, I await that data from my A/C

Soon we realised that what is 'illuminated'?

Simply realised that a dedo focused in the middle could be 'bright' but would not illuminate the whole target.

We therefore decided that 'illuminated' was a variance of no more than two stops across the target which looked visually suprisingley consistent.

It would seem that the nature of frenel lenses make this evaluation of 'illumination' harder and dont work in their favour of that fixture type in terms of this test. The Joker has so many modifier options that I feel I was 'harsh' on it and it actually would be 'worth' another stop or two on location - there is no way that it is not much brighter than my 6 bank flo.

Roughly brightness was thus..
Mole 400
Filex 1000
RPhos chroma q
Joker 800 Frost diffusor
Photon Beard 6 bank
Diva 4 bank
CTB Gelled redhead
Led Bar light (with mag correction!)
Dedo Led 4.1
Dede DLH4 (with correction filter)

[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]2.8[/TD]

It should be remembered that a bank of redheads (for example) to become 3 stops brighter would need not 3X the power but 8X the power (1*2*4)

In terms of colour temp and rendition I have many gretag cards to look at, Id say that the Filex and Mole are good, with tungsten and HMI more pleasant (warmer) but good, the cheaper led options such as my Cree bar light are significantly odd.

My conclusions were that the Filex and Mole Joker are beyond my budget, the chroma q was interesting but a bit green and had fan noise issues but has a light to cost ratio that is of interest to owner ops, the silence and pleasantness of colour of the Joker makes it a fixture one would feel confident to rent.

Here are the grey sections of the charts I shot (for the lights Im interested in)

Greys.jpg

By click balancing the shot cards in Capture One the temperature and tint values are recorded thus.. (a tint value close to 0 is good, a -ve value is a magenta swing)

LightTemperaturTint
Mole 400
Filex 1000
RPhos chroma q
Joker 800
Beard
Diva 4 bank
CTB Gelled redhead
Led Bar light (with mag correction!)
Dedo Led 4.1
Dede DLH4 (with correction filter)

[TD="align: right"]6535[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.7[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5773[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5993[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.6[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5153[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-0.4[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6907[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.4[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6907[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.4[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]5366[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]7284[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-14.8[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6352[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.3[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]6305[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.2[/TD]
 
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I like the Zylight F8-200 (on paper; I've never used it). 200w power draw, so equivalent to a 2K tungsten (400 w HMI). That makes it brighter than the Fiilex Q-1000 which is close to a 1300w tungsten, though it's not bi-color like the Q-1000 is; there is a color filter set sold specifically for it. Then again, if you're battling daylight bi-color tends to hurt more than help. It can also be run off of two AB or V-mount batteries which can mount directly to the light.

The best part of all about it, is it weighs just 10 lbs, and is not a terribly large fixture either. That's about half the weight of the Fiilex Q-1000 and 1/3 the weight of the Mole 400 (though the Mole is probably twice as bright which is good if you don't mind the weight, size, and perhaps lower CRI).
 
Some thoughts..

Mole 400The fixture is the size of a dustbin, the frenel beam is something to become accustomed too (if you are used to the sharp beam of a dedo). Fans did not become active and would need further investigation for noise pollution. The focus mechanisim again felt 'wooly' to a dedo user. It has real punch considering the 400w draw.
Filex 1000This fixture impressed me for build quality and feel coming from a 'non brand' manufacturuer, The beam was lovely and controllable, and the fixture small and portable. The fan noise needs further investigation. Clearly an appealing light if you have deep pockets
RPhos chroma qThis fixture packed a lot of light for the cost size and convenience, it did however feel quite green and have noticable fan noise, a quieter mode is available with a drop in power. It appeals to my pocket, and I will take one on extended test.
Joker 800One felt that one needed to be a 'pro' to use this light, an external ballast and slow strike time impede use on a fast set, not something you would want anyone not trained touch/move/strike. I felt that this was an utterly dependable fixture on a pro set and would have no issues in renting it appropriately.
BeardThis six bank light seems to have a suprising kick, and less spread than the Kino original, we feel the refelectors behind the tubes somehow account for this
Diva 4 bankExtremely even
CTB Gelled redheadThe old battle axe cannot be discounted!
Led Bar light (with mag correction!)My Cree barlights kick like a mule for $150 and 120watts draw, but running on 12v makes them really only useful off grid. the colour is so wonky that portraiture should be avoided.
Dedo Led 4.1Both Dedos seemed a bit green. The dedo lens is a legend and this light can lift a face on a bright EXT scene which is impressive for a vlock fixture.
Dede DLH4 (with correction filter)The DLH4 is known entity that is super handy on grid, the dichronic colour filter was not as perfect as I thought.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
I like the Zylight F8-200 (on paper; I've never used it). 200w power draw
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Yep that looks interesting.

The Filex is multicoloured (I think) and the beam was very dedo like if that floats your boat. It felt really good and not heavy in a manner that would impede a small crew. I think it is a 360w draw so a concept of power may be concluded as being higher than the Zylight.

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Yep that looks interesting.

The Filex is multicoloured (I think) and the beam was very dedo like if that floats your boat. It felt really good and not heavy in a manner that would impede a small crew. I think it is a 360w draw so a concept of power may be concluded as being higher than the Zylight.

S
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Q-1000 is 340w power draw (not 360) at 4500k. At 3200k and 5600k you're probably looking at 160w power draw, so less than the Zylight. In addition to being bi-color on the Kelvin spectrum, you also get green and magenta shift which is nice (Arri LC7 has this too). The Q-1000 is listed as "1,500-2,000 W tungsten equivalent"; I thought I'd seen 1300w somewhere before, but I can't find that spec now. The beam angle on the Q-1000 is 32-59° compared to the much more variable 16 to 70° on the Zylight. Fiilex sells an 8" Fresnel Lens for $645 to get a 25 to 10° beam angle, but that's just more size, weight, and accessories to have to deal with taking on and off.

The Q-1000 is certainly manageable for a small crew, but for a one-man-band (such as myself) it may be a bit much, whereas the Zylight with it's smaller size and weight is more manageable for my needs. I wish it had a wireless option to control via my phone, though. I'm interested to see what NAB will bring.
 
Eric - all these numbers are, well just numbers - that's why I got hold of a bunch of lights.

I don't know if you have tried the zlight but the physical experience of the many lights was interesting - clearly the nature of the lenses makes a huge difference to performance and the fillex lens just felt controlable with a precise beam like a dedo.

ive watched the zy light video on thier product page and at no point do they show us what the beam actually looks like - I find that odd

moaning on about the beam may sound like hair splitting but if you own dedos and reds you will be aware that a focussed 150 watts can out illuminate 800 watts in some set ups

The filex was brought to me - it is not something I chose on paper - but in reality I was very impressed
 
I did give thought to the method of testing and it became clear that the drop off across spread was needed to level the playing field - it showed me how much the manufacturers can swing thier illumination performance by just metering the light at the beam centre

while my setups may not be highly scientific the results seem ok. I'm especially pleased that my test found the hmi and redhead to have the best colour - as this matched what is known about the technologies.

on paper the Rp sources are listed as great colour - but clearly they are green - just getting them in the hand one could see this instantly

im not saying the zylight is bad - just saying that I won't buy it without performing a test - in paper it looks great
 
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Used the first generation Zylight F8-100 on a couple of shoots. Very nice light with a clean beam, but there was an issue with the focusing mechanism that's was subsequently rectified. Seemed about as bright as a 650w, or perhaps 1000w, tungsten. It was bigger then I imagined with an extremely robust build.

The brighter F8-200 looks very promising, but haven't seen it in the wild yet, & hope to compare it side-by-side with Hive's Wasp. Hive's great with loaning out their lights, & my Gaffer can likely borrow the new Zylight from his Broker.

Another plus for the Zylight is they stated the emitter could be upgraded if better options become available., though it's color is so good already this may be moot.

EDIT: Just noticed the F8-200 uses a cooling fan. Have to see how that fairs. Zylight has also announced an even more powerful F8-300 that's completely silent, but looks less travel friendly, & I magine it's not compatible with brick batteries.

http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/2992-run-silent-the-zylight-f8-300-led-fresnel
 
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Sam,

Great thread, i missed this.

I'm in a similar situation. It's not a clear call here.

I have an Area48, which i think is wonderful, the best light quality from any light, full stop. But combatting daylight? Well one advantage is that you don't need to silk it, it's very soft as it is. It's about 1000w tungsten equiv and you can rack 4 of them together which would offer some serious punch but that would be super expensive.

I have the aladdin bi-flex 50, so thats 50w of light, nice but not powerful enough. The Area48 by comparison is around 100w draw.

I looked at the Nilas and did like them, but super expensive again, especially for something with power.

I have a couple of 400/575w HMIs from dedo which are nice, but i never really found punch in them, so i don't think 575w are really going to make that much difference to you.

In your case i'd be tempted to eBay some proper 1.2k HMIs.

I am looking to get some DLED7s, which are the new dedos, whereas the DLED4 are 40w, these are 70w but even more efficient. The DLED90 are 90w, and all can be running of batteries (and that can be *really* useful, but if you're using gennies then you don't care). The dedos are more precision though, rather than just a chunk of light.

Have to say, i think you're still in rental territory if you need that much light? I'm not keen on expanding and getting more HMIs, they're a pain really. Colour temp can be off too.

I'm looking to compare DLED7 with my 400/575w HMIs. On paper there shouldn't be any competition but i'm curious all the same.

But reading up thoughts is great

cheers
Paul
 
You bring up some interesting points.

Firstly upgrade path.. it is annoying as a dled 4.1 owner not to be able to upgrade the fixture to the 70w lamp.. I note the commet above that zylights are upgradable.. one has concerns about upgrade path in this fast moving area of technology.

Power. I have.. domestic power (mostly) but dont like popping fuses on location so try to keep inside 2k per ring, Vlocks, a leisure batt that seems to deliver 250w for three hours OK I dont know its maximum current but it might be higher, a 1k and a 2.5k genny. Using the gennies is of course the least convenient option. Buying a bigger genny would be double inconvenient.

Clearly I would ideally want fixtures that handle multiple power sources, maybe a 10min interview on a Vlock, hour on the leisure batt and of course all day on gennies. Ive kind of assumed that Vlock will just not deliver the current for bigger lights even with a minimised schedule.

Area 48.. it is firmly on my hitlist. I wonder if you could photograph a gretag card with a stills camera set on 5500k and ping me a jpg. The ChromaQ seems similar tech (100w RP) and was clearly green. That does not make it a bad source.. just tricky to use in mixed conditions.

Any other comments on the A48 .. eg noise also appreciated.

The ChromaQ is cheaper and tidier (built in balast) than the A48 but does not offer (afaik) a battery option and also had fan noise and or reduced power.

Bigger dedos are also of interest as my Dled4.1 fared surprisingly well in my outdoor test (but only covering a small area of course)

S
 
morgan_moore said:
You bring up some interesting points.

Firstly upgrade path.. it is annoying as a dled 4.1 owner not to be able to upgrade the fixture to the 70w lamp.. I note the commet above that zylights are upgradable.. one has concerns about upgrade path in this fast moving area of technology.

Power. I have.. domestic power (mostly) but dont like popping fuses on location so try to keep inside 2k per ring, Vlocks, a leisure batt that seems to deliver 250w for three hours OK I dont know its maximum current but it might be higher, a 1k and a 2.5k genny. Using the gennies is of course the least convenient option. Buying a bigger genny would be double inconvenient.

Clearly I would ideally want fixtures that handle multiple power sources, maybe a 10min interview on a Vlock, hour on the leisure batt and of course all day on gennies. Ive kind of assumed that Vlock will just not deliver the current for bigger lights even with a minimised schedule.

Area 48.. it is firmly on my hitlist. I wonder if you could photograph a gretag card with a stills camera set on 5500k and ping me a jpg. The ChromaQ seems similar tech (100w RP) and was clearly green. That does not make it a bad source.. just tricky to use in mixed conditions.

Any other comments on the A48 .. eg noise also appreciated.

The ChromaQ is cheaper and tidier (built in balast) than the A48 but does not offer (afaik) a battery option and also had fan noise and or reduced power.

Bigger dedos are also of interest as my Dled4.1 fared surprisingly well in my outdoor test (but only covering a small area of course)

S
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There's a review on the Area48 on our blog, and also there's this http://blog.inventome.com/Blog/2016/3/lumecube/LumeCube-LED-Lights

But that doesn't include the Area48, i will ping you over stills of the card though, may be able to get that done tonite unless i can find some i took previously.

There's something just 'right' about the colour from it. And the softness of light belies it's size (about an A4 sheet), it appears as if it's come from a bigger window. I need to get some honeycomb for it, that's on my list. Also there's a soft box over the barn doors which helps intensify the light coming out too.

What i would say against it. It's pretty heavy, the power cable is too short and the locking system isn't ideal. It's rated from 0 degrees, so running really below sub zero i've had it not turn on until it's heated, that really surprised me. It's flicker free down to about 20% intensity then sometimes you can pick up a bit of flicker. You can slot a vlock onto a separate plate on the back. With a 150wh battery i can get about 50/60 mins on full power. It's borderline for some vlocks because the draw is quite high. There's no fan and it's noiseless. I can pick up a small electronic whine at some dimming levels though.

Judging by how few actual LEDs are in there i would guess there's an opportunity for a really big one of these too. The point about RP is that you use very high intensity blue light to excite the phosphor panels. So more light for the watts.

Conversely those flex lights are pretty neat too. I have the 50 which is, drum roll, 50w. But there's a 100w version and of course you could gang together two of those for 200w. The quality of light is pretty good too, well excellent in fact. So if you're diffusing a hard light maybe start with something soft?

The DLED4 i decided was a little too less. At the very least i'd like something comparable to the normal 150w dedos. I think the 7 has more punch, that even the 70 vs 40 suggests. The 90 is physically a bit bigger, more like the HMIs i have.

What i'm waiting for is the photometrics on them. I'd like bi-color but if the daylight version is more powerful i'd probably choose that.

cheers
Paul
 
My test with (above) put the Dled 4.1 as brighter than the DLH4 (with daylight filter in place)

So if you're diffusing a hard light maybe start with something soft?
Having a hard light gives one the option to diffuse or just blast when you need or want to.

Also hard lights and diffusors pack down much smaller than kino size fixtures

Outdoors kino size fixtures can have wind issues aka blow over unless sandbagged to the max.

The A48 does offer an interesting mid point.. it is smaller than I thought (I had it in my head that it was the size of a 4bank Diva)

It should pack in my 64L Really Useful Boxes and is not the size of a sail!

S
 
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