Summary of my findings (and video) of GH13 and GH2 ("strobing", detail, ...)

G

GMC

Well-known member
Summary of my findings (and video) of GH13 and GH2 ("strobing", detail, ...)

Hi folks,

Before I bought the GH2 I read through a couple of posts here where some people claimed the motion characteristics of 1080p24 to be different of the GH2 vs. GH13 ("strobing"), also detail level and a couple of other things.

Hence, I was curious to make a comparison on my own when I got my PAL GH2 (serial WB01...), so I mounted my GH13 with the hack ("C" settings, and native 24p checked) and the 20mm f1.7 Pancake on top of the GH2 with the 14-140 kit lens set to 20mm as well. I had to use an aperture of around 8 to 9 to get the desired shutter speeds. I also switched the OIS on the kit lens off for comparison reasons.

Also film mode (smooth, all settings except color -2), ISO and shutter were exactly equal, resulting in a brighter GH13 picture.

Hence, this gives a disadvantage to the GH2 in resolving detail in dark areas (these areas are darker than with GH13). Still, the GH2 is clearly better in this (and every other) respect.


Simple summary: to my eyes, the GH2 is a clear improvement in all aspects (IQ, features, ...) with the exception of the 720p mode (here GH13 because of higher bitrates is better), and I am quite happy to have these two exceptional cameras with me from now on!

My first "real" GH2 film:

http://vimeo.com/22157896

See my vimeo account for a couple of GH13 films (sort by "most liked"). Now go out and shoot, and have fun!
 
Aside from the higher resolution it seems the reds are redder, blues are bluer, greens are greener. Basically the colors pop a little more from the GH-2. Other than that (and the fact that the picture is a little brighter)...I can't seem to tell any difference when it comes to motion.

Thanks for that comparison.
 
Ian-T said:
Aside from the higher resolution it seems the reds are redder, blues are bluer, greens are greener. Basically the colors pop a little more from the GH-2. Other than that (and the fact that the picture is a little brighter)...I can't seem to tell any difference when it comes to motion.

Thanks for that comparison.
Click to expand...

Absolutely right!
 
Thanks for sharing your tests.

Given your lack of resources it's fair enough to use different lenses on the cameras; however this could make a significant difference to the results. To be more accurate you should also include footage showing the GH13 + 14-140mm and GH2 + 20mm.

For colour and shadow comparisons it would be more useful to match the exposure levels rather than ISOs. Slightly lower exposure usually makes colours appear more intense.

Simultaneous footage comparing gentle colour / shading gradients would be interesting too.
 
yeah but the 20mm is sharper than the 14-140 so the advantage would be on the gh1's. Anyway the results show that the gh2 is much sharper regardless of using the less sharp lens.
 
PJF said:
Thanks for sharing your tests.

Given your lack of resources it's fair enough to use different lenses on the cameras; however this could make a significant difference to the results. To be more accurate you should also include footage showing the GH13 + 14-140mm and GH2 + 20mm.

For colour and shadow comparisons it would be more useful to match the exposure levels rather than ISOs. Slightly lower exposure usually makes colours appear more intense.

Simultaneous footage comparing gentle colour / shading gradients would be interesting too.
Click to expand...

I agree. But as you state, ressources are limited. Also, how to exactly balance the exposure? By using the camera meter? Then people would say that it's not accurate ;-)

I did some other tests where I filmed the same (static) scene and quickly swapped lenses (to have the same lens on GH13 and GH2). Very similar results. Also, the whitebalance is much better to adjust during nighttime with the GH2, giving accurate colors. On the GH13 I always had to choose between an orange or greenish, yellow look.
 
Svart said:
yeah but the 20mm is sharper than the 14-140 so the advantage would be on the gh1's. Anyway the results show that the gh2 is much sharper regardless of using the less sharp lens.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely true. The 20mm is tack sharp. You can also see the difference on the LCD between 20mm Pancake and 14-140 kit lens when the manual focus assist (magnification) is used.
 
It is beyond me why people can't understand that the GH2 HAS to be an improvement of the GH1. After all the fuss with the "problems" the GH1 had, before the hack, do you really, really think Panasonic did not take notice and worked on a better version of this wonderful cam? I don't know what part of that people don't understand. Thanks for the test Gunther.
 
John Caballero said:
It is beyond me why people can't understand that the GH2 HAS to be an improvement of the GH1. After all the fuss with the "problems" the GH1 had, before the hack, do you really, really think Panasonic did not take notice and worked on a better version of this wonderful cam? I don't know what part of that people don't understand. Thanks for the test Gunther.
Click to expand...

If you are talking about a unhacked GH1 vs GH2? Then yes the GH2 is a improvement....and nobody denies this.
Properly hacked GH1 on the other hand...not so clear cut.
Theres no misunderstanding...Folks like myself,Blackout and some others are referring to their hacked GH1's NOT unhacked ones.
 
mimirsan said:
If you are talking about a unhacked GH1 vs GH2? Then yes the GH2 is a improvement....and nobody denies this.
Properly hacked GH1 on the other hand...not so clear cut.
Theres no misunderstanding...Folks like myself,Blackout and some others are referring to their hacked GH1's NOT unhacked ones.
Click to expand...

Well, it's fine that you defend the GH13, it is a wonderful cam and I am going to keep mine. I needed a second one, thats why I bought the GH2. If you need only one cam and already have a GH13, there are only minor reasons to upgrade and throw down the GH13.

Still, to me it's clear which is the better one (although my GH13 hack settings allow me to use 24p native with very very rare freezes, I'm getting an average 35 - 40mbit/s in FHD AVCHD - hence it seems properly hacked ;-)).
 
GMC said:
I agree. But as you state, ressources are limited. Also, how to exactly balance the exposure? By using the camera meter?
Click to expand...
DxOMark has published detailed measurements of the image sensors in the GH1 and GH2 here:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Camera-Sensor/Compare/Compare-sensors/%28appareil1%29/630|0/%28appareil2%29/677|0/%28onglet%29/0/%28brand%29/Panasonic/%28brand2%29/Panasonic

To see the measured ISO graphs of the two cameras, click the ISO Sensitivity button. My reading of the chart is that the GH1 would produce about the same exposure at ISO 125 as the GH2 at ISO 160. For the purposes of this comparison, matching the exposure of the two cameras looks worthwhile, as the distinctions I see in perceptible image quality could well be highly sensitive to exposure levels.
 
GMC said:
Well, it's fine that you defend the GH13, it is a wonderful cam and I am going to keep mine. I needed a second one, thats why I bought the GH2. If you need only one cam and already have a GH13, there are only minor reasons to upgrade and throw down the GH13.

Still, to me it's clear which is the better one (although my GH13 hack settings allow me to use 24p native with very very rare freezes, I'm getting an average 35 - 40mbit/s in FHD AVCHD - hence it seems properly hacked ;-)).
Click to expand...

Indeedy for me anyway I benefit from having the ability to use high bitrate 25p...something the GH2 currently lacks. Thats a deal breaker for me.
 
If there is ANYONE on this forum who I would actually take seriously about the GH2 being an improvement it is Gunther, as he is one of the best shooters with the original GH1, GH13, and obviously that would translate over to the GH2. Gunther, I find the C settings not good enough... I find the GH13 really really shines with a peak of 55mbit and an average of 42 to 44 at 24pn. This is where I have found it keeps details that the GH2 looses in very complex scenes like coney island on a busy day - crowded beach, tons of people.. or take a lookk at some of the wide shots in my prince footage and the denver footage with the granite. Also - you have vimeo +, so you could go into the secert setting menu actually show your comparison at 1080p which would be a much better encode.

In any case, if you could should some really crowded places with a wide angle on your gh2 - with some lighting variations - I would like to see it, because this is where I was not happy with the GH2. For ntsc land the gh13 seemed better to me with no point of going to the gh2 until such time as it is hacked. Even the af-100 is raising some eyebrows with some odd looking footage to me which is why I have not pulled the trigger on the purchase yet but I will be renting one for a shoot soon and report on my experiences.
 
lpowell said:
DxOMark has published detailed measurements of the image sensors in the GH1 and GH2 here:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Camera-Sensor/Compare/Compare-sensors/%28appareil1%29/630|0/%28appareil2%29/677|0/%28onglet%29/0/%28brand%29/Panasonic/%28brand2%29/Panasonic

To see the measured ISO graphs of the two cameras, click the ISO Sensitivity button. My reading of the chart is that the GH1 would produce about the same exposure at ISO 125 as the GH2 at ISO 160. For the purposes of this comparison, matching the exposure of the two cameras looks worthwhile, as the distinctions I see in perceptible image quality could well be highly sensitive to exposure levels.
Click to expand...

Thanks lpowell, this is a very good suggestion. I am drowned in work at the moment, but maybe I find some time for some further comparisons.
 
Blackout said:
If there is ANYONE on this forum who I would actually take seriously about the GH2 being an improvement it is Gunther, as he is one of the best shooters with the original GH1, GH13, and obviously that would translate over to the GH2. Gunther, I find the C settings not good enough... I find the GH13 really really shines with a peak of 55mbit and an average of 42 to 44 at 24pn. This is where I have found it keeps details that the GH2 looses in very complex scenes like coney island on a busy day - crowded beach, tons of people.. or take a lookk at some of the wide shots in my prince footage and the denver footage with the granite. Also - you have vimeo +, so you could go into the secert setting menu actually show your comparison at 1080p which would be a much better encode.

In any case, if you could should some really crowded places with a wide angle on your gh2 - with some lighting variations - I would like to see it, because this is where I was not happy with the GH2. For ntsc land the gh13 seemed better to me with no point of going to the gh2 until such time as it is hacked. Even the af-100 is raising some eyebrows with some odd looking footage to me which is why I have not pulled the trigger on the purchase yet but I will be renting one for a shoot soon and report on my experiences.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the kind words, blackout ;-)

Unfortunately I have no chance to shoot a crowded beach, as I am in rainy Vienna at the moment (but I would love to ;-)). Thanks about the hint for the vimeo settings. It's currently converting to 1080p. Probably certain hack settings would give some further improvements on the GH13, but the generall characteristics (e.g. muddy dark areas) seem to be more related to the AVCHD codec implementation and not so much to bitrates. The GH2 clearly improves this. Now you could say who cares about dark areas of the frame ;-))
 
GMC said:
but the generall characteristics (e.g. muddy dark areas) seem to be more related to the AVCHD codec implementation and not so much to bitrates. The GH2 clearly improves this. Now you could say who cares about dark areas of the frame ;-))
Click to expand...

That is very true, no amount of bitrate will improve the areas of the video that are being processed by the Gh13 as "not requiring many bits". Green leafy details in shadows or near the edges of the frame seem to be muddy. Having the B frames seems to improve this like in the Gh2 and HMC 150 version of AVCHD.

R
 
Properly hacked GH1 on the other hand...not so clear cut.
Click to expand...

And I am talking about the hacked GH1 too! You don't think the folks at Panasonic looked at the hacked version? Then gave the GH2 Native 24p, 24 mbits, better sensor, etc.? Please!
 
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