Suggestions for a flexible recording solution, also for moving concerts?

[NicolaF]

Hi everyone, sorry if my english isn't perfect.
We're going to make a doc regarding traditional music from my land (Liguria, northern Italy).
We'll use a Canon C100 and a 6D as B camera.
The problem is we may find ourself in crazy situations, like an old fisherman singing on his boat, a group of people singing while walking in the narrow alleys of a medieval village, people singing in the middle of a marketplace...
We will have some situations under control where we will be able to place microphones and repeat the performance and situations where we'll have just one possible shot and we'd love to move freely with cameras while recording the song alone, probably with a stereo-handheld solution (like in the alleys following the singers).
After reading almost all the reviews of digital audio recorders under 1000usd (the budget we have now), i know I could buy an handheld recorder, use the included mics for the wild situations and plug a mixer in it for the controlled situations.
Or choose an handheld recorder with more xlr inputs and avoid bringing the mixer.
Or buy something a little bigger, like the Tascam 680, but we will have to bring more mics and batteries will not last as long as on a smaller unit with its own mics.
So far I've found interesting these field recorders:
-Roland R26
-Marantz PMD661 (case strength, audio quality)
-Zoom H6 (for the inputs)
-Sony PCM D-100 (for the quality as stand-alone unit, I could plug a mixer in it for studio recordings)
-Roland R44
-Tascam 680


A similar question has been obviously posed 100s times. But I know you may give me your opinion knowing the job we will face.
Thanks!
Nicola

 

[Alex H.]

A similar question has been obviously posed 100s times. But I know you may give me your opinion knowing the job we will face.

And that's why we have THIS STICKY, to walk you through options on various types of recorders.

That said, I think your option comes down more to other gear than to the recorder, but I do have to ask: do you have someone on your crew who will be dedicated only to sound? If not, it changes your options a bit.

If you have someone dedicated to sound, the solution comes down to mic placement. Honestly, the best way to get what you want is to use lavs and wireless transmitters where needed and to run a boomed mic for most of what you want. The boom can reach places much more easily on the fly.

For flexibility, you'll want your sound person to be able to run both into and free of the camera depending on the needs at any given location. This means having a mixer and a recorder in an audio bag, a recording output from mixer to recorder that is always connected, and an ENG snake from mixer to camera with a quick disconnect for times when the camera and sound both need more independent freedom of movement.

One solution, though not cheap, is the Sound Devices 633. It functions both as a mixer with XLR out to camera, and a multi-track recorder that can run independently of the camera.

Or, you could go with the DR680 and simply make the call to run strictly second-system audio, letting the camera pick up only reference audio.

If you don't have someone dedicated just to sound, then options change. Wireless systems with lavs may become more important, and a handheld recorder may have a larger role in production. It depends on how your crew responsibilities are allocated.

 

[Noiz2]

Alex is right that your crew question make a BIG difference in options.

Having done something kind of like this before what I would do is have a bag recorder and mixer connected to a boomed stereo pair with a wireless jump to the camera for a reference track.

The reasons.

I would go stereo if possible since you are doing music in interesting environments. most of the situations you described involved more than one person so the wider coverage would also be a plus. Booming a stereo pair is a lot more work than a single mic so you do need to be up for that. Optionally I would go with a cardioid mic, rather than a shotgun or hyper for the same reasons. If you do an interview with te stereo mic connected you need to point it off axis so that one capsule is actually aiming at the subject, and toss the other track in post.

Last time I did this I was tethered to the camera and we were connecting and disconnecting all the time and trying to not trip over the wires. If you are in a more controlled situation this is not such a big deal but unless you have someone just to wrangle the cables you can get in trouble roaming the streets. The wireless hop adds a fair amount of $$$ since even though it's just a scratch track you will want a decently reliable connection so a Sen. G3 system or better is really a requirement. But having done tethered in fluid situations before I would find the money for the wireless hop. A lower cost option, but not nearly as good a one, is to have something like a rode Video Mic on the camera for the scratch track when you are very mobile and only tethering when it's a more controlled situation. The problem with syncing is that they are not "hearing" the same audio so sometimes that can be a problem.

I would not be using a handheld recorder for a couple of reasons. First it's small and not bag friendly. It has built in mics but you can't get them where you want them and still control and monitor the recordings.

My first choice would probably be the Tascam HD-P2

The Marantz PMD 671 is nice and bag friendly but they stopped making it. The Tascam 680 is not the easiest to use and I hear it eats batteries for lunch so not a great choice. Of the handhelds I have used I like the DR40 quite a lot, but as mentioned they are really hard to use in a bag. Maybe the DR60 would be slightly more over the shoulder friendly? The 663 looks fantastic but it's kind of $$$$. You might be able to pick up a used SD mixer/ recorder that wasn't a pocketbook killer. They are almost impossible to break and unlike most consumer/ prosumer equipment you can get them repaired if needed.

Whatever you end up recording to a good preamp with a really good limiter is a life saver in these unscripted shoots where you only really know what the levels are going to be after it's too late.

But you are going to have to make some big compromises in "joy" because of the budget.

again where you make cuts depends on what you are doing and who is doing it. Even a simple setup can work well IF your sound person has some time to tune their working it and your team has some time to practice working together. You "could" boom a handheld, and it "could" work, but there is going to be a learning curve and probably a few total misses. So can you afford that? Can you miss a few of those once only moments or do you NEED to make sure that things work every time?

If this is a doc that is going to shoot till you get what you need and you don't have a deadline pressing down on you then you have a lot more flexibility.

 

[NicolaF]

I went trough the sticky before asking. And your reply is the proof I did the right thing asking anyway. Thanks!
We'll be a crew of 3: 2 cameras and 1 audio.
The Sound Devices is too expensive at the moment (yes, I know that audio is more than half of the work!)
The Tascam DR680 has 4 hours of batteries...but I we may bring lots of them, not a real issue.
The boom with a good stereo XLR mic plugged into the DR680 looks like an interesting solution for the "wild" parts of the job.

 

[Noiz2]

You know the question that wasn't asked is what are you starting with?

For instance you are going to be outside so wind protection is going to be a must.

If you have $1,000 for a recorder you are in pretty good shape. If you don't have anything and $1,000 needs to cover everything, it's probably time for some DIY projects.

 

[NicolaF]

@Noiz2 I didn't read your reply befor mey second post.
The HD-P2 looks even more interesting and fits in the budget. I would then use the boomed stereo mic with wind protection for parts like the moving concert in the alleys and switch to something else for a controlled situation. Obviously there will be one man taking care of just the audio.

 

[Alex H.]

I would not be using a handheld recorder for a couple of reasons. First it's small and not bag friendly. It has built in mics but you can't get them where you want them and still control and monitor the recordings.

You "could" boom a handheld, and it "could" work, but there is going to be a learning curve and probably a few total misses. So can you afford that? Can you miss a few of those once only moments or do you NEED to make sure that things work every time?

Valid points. My reason for suggesting that a handheld may play a factor in your kit comes not as a primary recorder, and definitely not at the end of a boom (I would never recommend using a handheld recorder as a boomed mic), but as an additional tool that can get you sound textures on the fly.

Your sound person's primary work will be out of a bag with a proper mixer and/or recorder and a boom pole with the right mics. There's so much more to creating the soundscape in post, though, and while you may have a stereo pair on your boom for a production like this, there may be times when you want to grab sounds of the city or town or village, or sounds of the nearby creek or forrest, or other ambient tracks, and carrying the bag is cumbersome. Handhelds are fantastic for grabbing little sounds on the go that will serve as background elements. And if the camera is off shooting scenics that are MOS (no sound), that's a perfect time to leave the main audio kit in the truck and step away with a small recorder to get extra sounds for the production.

Side note: I like to travel with mine, even when I'm not on a shoot. I grab sounds where I go. When I hear something interesting, I record it and add it to my library. If I need the noise floor of a Canadair Regional Jet, I have it. If I need the DC Metro, I have it. Oceans, city streets, restaurants, passing trains, Bourbon Street at night... I have them. We had a pretty decent snow here a couple weeks ago (6", which is rare for the valley East TN), so I stepped out in the back yard and grabbed some footsteps in fresh snow.

If your crew had been more consolidate, grabbing passing sounds with a handheld may have been a more practical solution more of the time. Plus, for things like music groups on the street, placing someone in the crowd, inconspicuously, with a handheld and ear buds would have been far preferable to camera mic. Still not great, but offing closer placement that wouldn't be terribly obvious on camera. That is truly a last-resort scenario, and since you have a dedicated sound person, this really doesn't apply.

 

[Noiz2]

Absolutely. I do the same. It's why I have the DR40. It's much faster to set up and I use it all the time for grabbing stuff or just putting in a "safe " place when we have interesting weather. I have hours of thunderstorms and wind and Detroit city ambiences.

I have a bunch in the Bay Area but it was always a pain to set up the rig and I wouldn't take the chance to leave it in a "safe" place to record an hour of thunderstorms. Of course we didn't have anything like that in SF, but even ambiences would take a bunch of work or just hand holding it for three or four minutes. Doesn't seem like long till you try and do it ;~)

I saw someone booming a handheld once... But he was kind of an idiot. He also put a rubber kitchen glove over it to protect it from rain... And he was using it for production sound! It would have been funnier if I wasn't the one who had to do post on that particular film. Luckily the producer double teamed the guy with some wireless. The same guy used a shotgun at about fifty feet, and then complained about how noisy the recorder was...

I actually was referring back to the OP's original post where he talked about handhelds.

I have been meaning to go out and do some FS in the snow and ice. We have had a VERY snowy winter. I wlak the dog and go "I ought to be recording this" I love the crunch. We should be getting another foot or so, so I need to make myself go out and do it.

As a little fun footnote. On Never Cry Wolf the film spent years in post and they had the time so they flew up to Alaska and recorded actual footsteps in the snow. The walker walked in circles around the recordist. One of them (I believe it was the recordist) was Randy Thom. Probably the only "Foley" (technically WIFO) footsteps in a film actually recorded in snow.

Valid points. My reason for suggesting that a handheld may play a factor in your kit comes not as a primary recorder, and definitely not at the end of a boom (I would never recommend using a handheld recorder as a boomed mic), but as an additional tool that can get you sound textures on the fly.

Your sound person's primary work will be out of a bag with a proper mixer and/or recorder and a boom pole with the right mics. There's so much more to creating the soundscape in post, though, and while you may have a stereo pair on your boom for a production like this, there may be times when you want to grab sounds of the city or town or village, or sounds of the nearby creek or forrest, or other ambient tracks, and carrying the bag is cumbersome. Handhelds are fantastic for grabbing little sounds on the go that will serve as background elements. And if the camera is off shooting scenics that are MOS (no sound), that's a perfect time to leave the main audio kit in the truck and step away with a small recorder to get extra sounds for the production.

Side note: I like to travel with mine, even when I'm not on a shoot. I grab sounds where I go. When I hear something interesting, I record it and add it to my library. If I need the noise floor of a Canadair Regional Jet, I have it. If I need the DC Metro, I have it. Oceans, city streets, restaurants, passing trains, Bourbon Street at night... I have them. We had a pretty decent snow here a couple weeks ago (6", which is rare for the valley East TN), so I stepped out in the back yard and grabbed some footsteps in fresh snow.

If your crew had been more consolidate, grabbing passing sounds with a handheld may have been a more practical solution more of the time. Plus, for things like music groups on the street, placing someone in the crowd, inconspicuously, with a handheld and ear buds would have been far preferable to camera mic. Still not great, but offing closer placement that wouldn't be terribly obvious on camera. That is truly a last-resort scenario, and since you have a dedicated sound person, this really doesn't apply.

 

[Alex H.]

Absolutely. I do the same. It's why I have the DR40.

I use the same one.

I have been meaning to go out and do some FS in the snow and ice. We have had a VERY snowy winter. I wlak the dog and go "I ought to be recording this" I love the crunch. We should be getting another foot or so, so I need to make myself go out and do it.

Well, if you miss it you can always pack a balloon full of corn starch.

 

[NicolaF]

Thanks again guys!

 

[Noiz2]

Well, if you miss it you can always pack a balloon full of corn starch.

There is that. The Foley guys we worked with on some things used a combo of cornmeal and rock salt on a drop cloth. Does well for skiing kinds of snow sounds. Cornstarch will do the crunch of the footsteps (which till I moved here I never knew how close to the real thing that sounds!), but it doesn't work so well for skiing, snowboarding etc.