Suggestion for Field Recorder - Tascam DR-680?

G

gentaylor

Member
Hi,

I've read a few related threads but wanted to get advice on my specific situation. I do documentary work in which I shoot and record sound with a small crew. We're out in the field a lot. For sound, I've been running my mics through a Wendt X3 into a Zoom H4N. I love the Wendt X3, but am thinking of upgrading the recorder.

Do you think the Tascam DR-680 is a good choice for this set-up? I'm wondering specifically about pre-amp noise and the general quality of the sound files as compared to the Zoom.

(Not to mention the fact that the Zoom is awkward in the bag and the Tascam would slip neatly into my tiered Porta-Brace.)

The Tascam's 8 channels might be overkill. (I don't usually need more than 2.) But in its price range, there doesn't seem to be much else that performs better.

Thanks for your opinions!!
 
Edirol? 4 channels. I just recorded a concert with it, and the musicians were blown away. They considered the output as good as anything they have ever heard. They are well established world class touring pros from Brazil. I take their word more than my jaded ear...No hiss heard here.
 
The audio quality of the dr-680 is excellent to my opinion. I found some tests on the internet that claim it is similar to sounddevices 700-series. Can't find that anymore though.

But still I prefer using my shure fp24 (2channel mixer) combined with the h4n over the tascam. Simply because the dr-680 draws such a lot of power. 8 AA batteries give me barely 2 hours. The shure fp24 runs 10 hours on 2AA straight. And the h4n runs about 4 hours on 2 AAs. I only use the tascam for interview stuff, when I am indoors and able to plug into the wall. If a better 6 channel-recorder comes along, I will immediately switch. Unless there is a firmware upgrade of tascam that addresses the power consumption of that box.
 
gentaylor said:
Hi,

I've read a few related threads but wanted to get advice on my specific situation. I do documentary work in which I shoot and record sound with a small crew. We're out in the field a lot. For sound, I've been running my mics through a Wendt X3 into a Zoom H4N. I love the Wendt X3, but am thinking of upgrading the recorder.

Do you think the Tascam DR-680 is a good choice for this set-up? I'm wondering specifically about pre-amp noise and the general quality of the sound files as compared to the Zoom.

(Not to mention the fact that the Zoom is awkward in the bag and the Tascam would slip neatly into my tiered Porta-Brace.)

The Tascam's 8 channels might be overkill. (I don't usually need more than 2.) But in its price range, there doesn't seem to be much else that performs better.

Thanks for your opinions!!
Click to expand...

For the price - I think the 680 is the best bet at the moment.

Though I think battery life needs watching.
 
I've been running the 680 in my bag for about 5 months now and here's my take on it:

While listed as a 8 track recorder, here is really how it breaks down:

4 tracks of recording via XLR inputs with phantom
2 tracks of recording via TRS 1/4"
2 tracks of recording which can be used either as a 2 channel mixdown of the other 6, or directly accessible via SPDIF.

I use a PSC Alphamix on the front of the recorder and take direct (iso) outs from each channel on the mixer into the 680. Depending on the shoot, I will configure as either iso tracks only when I'm sending a camera feed with the two track mix from the PSC, or I'll run 4 tracks of iso, + 2 tracks of mixdown when not sending a camera feed in order to create a dailies mix.

Sound quality is very good.

The only three issues I've had to address are these:
While you can access most of the control for the unit from the front panel, the power switch is a pushbutton on the top of the unit which means when loaded in a field bag, you have to snake your hand down and kinda feel for the button. No biggie but have the power switch on the front would be far more convienient for bag use.

The unit will devour AA batteries. I feed the 680 power via it's external power jack from my Alphamix which runs on NP-1 batteries. In that configuration, I can go about 4 hours between battery changes powering both the mixer and recorder. When running the unit on AA batteries alone, I too get about 2 hours before having to feed it another 8 AA batteries.

The USB port for dumping data is located behind a flap on the side of the unit which is also where the SD card resides. This means to get access to the data, you either have to leave a usb cable plugged in and tucked away in the bag, which tends to put some strain on the usb port, or fish that side of the recorder out of the bag to either plug in usb or grab the card. This is also where the power jack is so I've had to leave enough slack in the power cable to accomodate. This is on the opposite side of the recorder as the inputs, so I can keep all those input cables connected.

Reliability has been great and have not have a problem yet and have been working the unit very hard.

If I had to do it again, I would. For the price, it's a hard unit to beat.

gentaylor said:
Hi,

I've read a few related threads but wanted to get advice on my specific situation. I do documentary work in which I shoot and record sound with a small crew. We're out in the field a lot. For sound, I've been running my mics through a Wendt X3 into a Zoom H4N. I love the Wendt X3, but am thinking of upgrading the recorder.

Do you think the Tascam DR-680 is a good choice for this set-up? I'm wondering specifically about pre-amp noise and the general quality of the sound files as compared to the Zoom.

(Not to mention the fact that the Zoom is awkward in the bag and the Tascam would slip neatly into my tiered Porta-Brace.)

The Tascam's 8 channels might be overkill. (I don't usually need more than 2.) But in its price range, there doesn't seem to be much else that performs better.

Thanks for your opinions!!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for these replies! Besides its battery devouring nature and its somewhat awkward control placement, I heard one other complaint: that the unit gets overheated, shuts down, and potentially loses the current file it's recording. Anyone have that problem?

Also, the main question is whether the sound is significantly better than the Zoom H4N.

Thanks again for the replies.
 
I've been very pleased with the Edirol R-44. A friend has the Marantz 661 and is pleased with that. You are bound to get many different choices from many users.
 
If you only need two channels, and you want a bag friendly design, check out the Fostex FR2LE. I don't own one, but I've heard many people say great things about its sound quality. Since you're running a mixer and a recorder in one bag, you may want to consider putting together a battery distribution system. Get a Remote Audio BDSv3 and an NP1 (with a charger), an NP1 cap and a couple of power cables and you'll thank yourself later.
 
Re: Tascam DR-680 -

1) "Devouring" power consumption -
my suggestion is forget about AA batteries. 8x rechargeable Sony 2500mA AA's cost at least $12 x 8 = $96 (plus tax/shipping cost), which offered me only about 3 hours (IIRC) with 2 phantom powered mics. For the same price & weight, I got a Tekkeon MP3450 from B&H, of the size of a regular PDA. It's usable right out of the box. Tested: for 4x XLR mics and phantom power, the setup can run well over 6 hours - I stopped testing at 6 hr as I don't think I would ever record something continuously for > 6 hours.

2) "Awkward" control placement -
During actual recording, this is more or less a menu driven unit. I can confirm it's awkward. No remote control like you would get with H4n. Typically you'd have to take a look at the unit when making any adjustment during recording. However, there is a great control next to the power switch. It will lock down everything as is, preventing accidental and all changes - you can't even power up/down the unit when the lock is on, which is great!

3) Sound quality -
DR-680 has to be much better than H4n if you ever need their mic preamp. If you don't use their mic amp, then H4n (as well as other low-end digital recorders capable of 24bit /96kHz recording, DR-680 included) are not very much different sound-wise. And by specs, Fostex FR 2LE can't be better than DR-680 sound-wise, and by size/weight/flexibility/price, DR-680 has to be a much better bang for the buck.

4) Overheat?
My Tekkeon (not my DR-680 without batteries in it) can be really hot, and it runs next to my DR-680 in my well-padded Lowepro camera bag (I'm not a sound guy ;-). I was worried as the bag can be hot. But leaving them running inside the bag for a few hours has never caused anything to go wrong. Admittedly, the Lowepro bag has an opening on the top, which helps with air flow, and I will never zip it up as that's the way to monitor the recorder without opening the entire bag. Anyway, since I bought it last summer, I have not had a single problem with my DR-680.


gentaylor said:
Thanks for these replies! Besides its battery devouring nature and its somewhat awkward control placement, I heard one other complaint: that the unit gets overheated, shuts down, and potentially loses the current file it's recording. Anyone have that problem?

Also, the main question is whether the sound is significantly better than the Zoom H4N.

Thanks again for the replies.
Click to expand...
 
"DR-680 has to be much better than H4n if you ever need their mic preamp. If you don't use their mic amp..."

How can I avoid the H4N's pre-amp? Isn't all of the sound coming into the unit amplified somewhat by adjusting the recording levels? It's my understanding the the Zoom does not have line input.

Please help me here if I'm wrong about this.
 
henryqiu said:
3) Sound quality -
DR-680 has to be much better than H4n if you ever need their mic preamp. If you don't use their mic amp, then H4n (as well as other low-end digital recorders capable of 24bit /96kHz recording, DR-680 included) are not very much different sound-wise. And by specs, Fostex FR 2LE can't be better than DR-680 sound-wise, and by size/weight/flexibility/price, DR-680 has to be a much better bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

I'm confused by "has to be" and "can't be"... what does this mean? How does it differ from "is" and "isn't"... do I read this correctly as you saying you have no basis for the statements?
 
henryqiu said:
Re: Tascam DR-680 -

The problem with this approach is you're still having to fish the recorder out of the bag to change batteries, and that means disconnecting nearly all interconnects between the mixer and recorder. A far better approach is to power the recorder remotely from a single battery source, like NP-1s, which can be changed quickly and without tampering with the recorder.

1) "Devouring" power consumption -
my suggestion is forget about AA batteries. 8x rechargeable Sony 2500mA AA's cost at least $12 x 8 = $96 (plus tax/shipping cost), which offered me only about 3 hours (IIRC) with 2 phantom powered mics. For the same price & weight, I got a Tekkeon MP3450 from B&H, of the size of a regular PDA. It's usable right out of the box. Tested: for 4x XLR mics and phantom power, the setup can run well over 6 hours - I stopped testing at 6 hr as I don't think I would ever record something continuously for > 6 hours.

Not sure what you mean by "awkward". Other than the power switch, all the controls I need for recorder control are located on the front panel, and when used with a mixer, recorder gain levels are rarely, if ever, adjusted after being set. Most mixers with direct channel outs put their direct out tap just after the gain control and before the fader, thereby allowing you to use your mixer to make gain adjustments being sent to the recorder. The DR-680 allows to to select which channels will be recorded, and if needed, a button press gets you to the place where you can use the encoder to adjust recorder levels, sends, and mixes. A recorder is not a mixer, and I haven't run across any recorder which can function as a dedicated mixer.

2) "Awkward" control placement -
During actual recording, this is more or less a menu driven unit. I can confirm it's awkward. No remote control like you would get with H4n. Typically you'd have to take a look at the unit when making any adjustment during recording. However, there is a great control next to the power switch. It will lock down everything as is, preventing accidental and all changes - you can't even power up/down the unit when the lock is on, which is great!

3) Sound quality -
DR-680 has to be much better than H4n if you ever need their mic preamp. If you don't use their mic amp, then H4n (as well as other low-end digital recorders capable of 24bit /96kHz recording, DR-680 included) are not very much different sound-wise. And by specs, Fostex FR 2LE can't be better than DR-680 sound-wise, and by size/weight/flexibility/price, DR-680 has to be a much better bang for the buck.

4) Overheat?
My Tekkeon (not my DR-680 without batteries in it) can be really hot, and it runs next to my DR-680 in my well-padded Lowepro camera bag (I'm not a sound guy ;-). I was worried as the bag can be hot. But leaving them running inside the bag for a few hours has never caused anything to go wrong. Admittedly, the Lowepro bag has an opening on the top, which helps with air flow, and I will never zip it up as that's the way to monitor the recorder without opening the entire bag. Anyway, since I bought it last summer, I have not had a single problem with my DR-680.
Click to expand...

Other than not having TC, I can't find anything to complain about with the DR-680 when used as a recorder behind a quality field mixer. Other than the power button, which is a minor inconvienience, and the need to provide lasting power (a problem you'll face with any recorder), I can't find another recorder which would equal the 680 at the price point it sells for, and as a recorder to be used on the backend of a quality field mixer like the Wendt.
 
John Willett said:
For the price - I think the 680 is the best bet at the moment.

Though I think battery life needs watching.
Click to expand...
The 680 is an excellent machine. The differences between it and high end stuff do not really apply in the field. The converters are clear and transparent, leaning towards the crystal side as opposed the the warm and fuzzy side. The FR2-LE is also good. I mainly use the 680 now but tomorrow it will be the Fostex.
 
1) "Devouring" power consumption -
my suggestion is forget about AA batteries. 8x rechargeable Sony 2500mA AA's cost at least $12 x 8 = $96 (plus tax/shipping cost), which offered me only about 3 hours (IIRC) with 2 phantom powered mics. For the same price & weight, I got a Tekkeon MP3450 from B&H, of the size of a regular PDA. It's usable right out of the box. Tested: for 4x XLR mics and phantom power, the setup can run well over 6 hours - I stopped testing at 6 hr as I don't think I would ever record something continuously for > 6 hours.
Click to expand...

Your price on rechargeables is a bit high. You can get a 16 pack of 2400mA low discharge NiMh AA's for $47

But I like your solution better anyway. I bought one of those boxes and it's definitely a keeper.


3) Sound quality -
DR-680 has to be much better than H4n if you ever need their mic preamp. If you don't use their mic amp, then H4n (as well as other low-end digital recorders capable of 24bit /96kHz recording, DR-680 included) are not very much different sound-wise. And by specs, Fostex FR 2LE can't be better than DR-680 sound-wise, and by size/weight/flexibility/price, DR-680 has to be a much better bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

You may be correct that it IS better but there isn't any big reason I can think of why it "must" be. The Tascam preamps are probably better, certainly you have better control. As the OP posted (and I seem to remember this from somewhere else) if you can't by pass the mic pres then they will always have an influence on the sound.

And the "bang for the buck" is really subjective. For small run and gun bag work a DEVA would be a small nightmare. The whole more for your money only works if it fits what you need. The OP seems to need a two track recorder with decent mic pre.s so the 680 may not be the ideal choice. The two track Tascam would have better battery life be a bit more user friendly (more controls less menu) so that may be the better "bang".
 
ullanta said:
I'm confused by "has to be" and "can't be"... what does this mean? How does it differ from "is" and "isn't"... do I read this correctly as you saying you have no basis for the statements?
Click to expand...

You're kinda right... As everyone knows, numerous factors affect the quality of a recording as well as the evaluation of such quality. I bought H4n - not satisfied - and returned it for buying DR-680. But that does not establish the validity of any such claim that DR-680 is better if mic preamp is needed - I might just prefer one over the other for no good reason. The published specs of H4n doesn't appear to be directly comparable to that of DR-680, and sounds pretty good. H4n's manufacturer publicly claims that "[SIZE=-1]Our new, digitally controlled, high-quality preamplifier renders audio so precise, you'll sound like you recorded in a world-class studio....[/SIZE]" Honestly, how can anyone claim that DR-680 is better than a world-class studio recorder?! But one thing I was sure about: DR-680 "has to be" better than H4n, and actually much better, as long as their mic preamp must be put to use. Here, "has to be" is not the same as "is" -- meaning it's not (solely) based on scientific lab tests (including direct specs comparison) - but more or less by my research and personal experience (unscientific testing etc) - make sense?

In the case of Fostex FR 2LE, I found its specs is close to that of DR-680, but there is nothing I could find in the specs that implies it's a better recorder with a better mic preamp than DR-680... That's why I wrote that it "can't be better than DR-680 sound-wise". The actual units sold may be different than implied by specs, and field tests might show something unexpected....


gentaylor said:
How can I avoid the H4N's pre-amp? ... It's my understanding the the Zoom does not have line input.
Click to expand...

I forgot certain details of H4n as this wasn't my main reason for returning my H4n. I'm apologizing for that.


To Noiz2: I agree with you that in terms of user needs or something else not directly mentioned here, other recorders may very well become a better bang. when I wrote DR-680 is a "better bang for the buck," I was merely in reference to Fostex FR 2LE and only in terms of size/weight/flex/price.
 
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henryqiu,

were quibbling about phraseology partly because it can get misleading. People in sound are often proclaiming X is better than Y with no real knowledge that it is. That's why we bristle at terms like "must be", it sounds informed but doesn't say it is.

I think most would agree that in terms of "probable" (I haven't used all of them) quality that Tascam is going to rate higher than Zoom and probably FR2LE. Of the three only Fostex and Tascam have any history producing professional gear. But in general I think you will find fewer objections if you phrase it in terms of experience. "I liked Tascam a lot better" will go over much smoother than "Tascam must be better".

The other thing to watch out for is specs. They are notorious for being apples and oranges. Unless some lab tested each and comes out with independent specs that are actually the SAME measurement it's very hard to impossible to get anything but a general impression from specs.

Manufactures tend to measure slightly different things and often in different units, even then they are idealized situations (kind of like rated MPG). For instance a lot of micro recorders list high sample rates with out the audio section to support it. If your mic pre is crap over 18K then a 96K sample rate is pretty pointless.

Cheers
SK
 
henryqui - your notes were very helpful. Thanks to all for the replies. I feel good about the ugrade to the Tascam. I might not often need more than 2 channels, but when I do, I'll be glad I have them. It'll also be great to finally have a bag friendly unit. The Zoom is always cumbersome in the field.
 
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