Struggling to get a good set up going

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kman418

New member
I finally got into filmmaking recently and on the recommendation of a friend I got a Tascam DR-40 and a AT-897 based on what I'd read about that mic online. When they finally came in, I realized the product I was getting with the two was so abysmally quiet that I had to jack up my recorder to the point that the audio was completely unusable. After doing some research and finding some other people who had the same issue, I got a Cloudlifter CL-1. It certainly helped a lot, but even with an external pre-amp I was getting a ton of noise. I've tried running it with both phantom and battery power and neither is much better than the other.

I realize the DR-40 is an incredibly cheap recorder and I'm willing to go with a higher quality recorder if I need to. My question is given all this...... what would the best course of action be. As I'm sure it's become clear I really don't know much what I'm doing here. If I return the DR-40 and go with a higher quality recorder and stuck with the AT-897 would that do the trick? Or vice versa

I'm willing to go like ~200 higher with my budget on this but I'd like to know what the best course of action here would be so I can get this settled.
 
The price difference between a Tascam DR-40 and a 70D is about $110 - well worth it, IMHO to get the DR-70D. I'm curious about your choice of the AT-897. That's certainly a respectable mic, but I wonder what use scenarios you envision. If by any chance, you are looking for a shotgun that you can use both for interiors and for exteriors, then for my money, I would get the cheaper AT-875r - the specs are very close, but the AT-875r will be slightly more forgiving and more useful for interiors, without dramatic differences in exteriors - in other words, I think the AT-875r would be somewhat more useful in more circumstances. Regardless which of these two you choose, you will need wind protection for exteriors. And since the AT-875r is cheaper than the 897, the 70D + 875r combo will cost you even slightly less than the DR-40 + 897, and will be a much, much better set of tools.
 
A few thoughts

Most of the cheap recorders don't match well with cheap mics. Cheap recorders usually have low output preamps. Cheap condenser mics usually have low output. So this isn't a great combo by itself. Having said that, if your mic placement is good, like less than 24" close, and your talent doesn't mumble, it will work ok for lower budget productions. The 897 was my first shotgun and it is decent for the price.

The easy and best fix IMHO is to add a mixer in the middle which will make a world of difference; more gain, better controls, bag friendly, and much much more. The dr40 will work well enough as a bit bucket, and the 897 will capture decent sound with exceptions, the mixer in the middle will minimize the weakness in each. Unfortunately, you will have to adjust your budget upwards to do this. Think about a used Sound Devices MixPre. And how much did you spend on your cam? Good audio isn't cheap, nuff said

If you want to skip the mixer, a better recorder like the Tascam DR680 has much stronger preamps, but again, will exceed your budget. Since I own both a 680 and 897, I can assure you this will work.

And another thought to ruin your budget some more; I hope you are aware that the 897 is not a good mic for indoor use unless the room is acousticly well dampened.

Grant
 
OldCorpse said:
The price difference between a Tascam DR-40 and a 70D is about $110 - well worth it, IMHO to get the DR-70D. I'm curious about your choice of the AT-897. That's certainly a respectable mic, but I wonder what use scenarios you envision. If by any chance, you are looking for a shotgun that you can use both for interiors and for exteriors, then for my money, I would get the cheaper AT-875r - the specs are very close, but the AT-875r will be slightly more forgiving and more useful for interiors, without dramatic differences in exteriors - in other words, I think the AT-875r would be somewhat more useful in more circumstances. Regardless which of these two you choose, you will need wind protection for exteriors. And since the AT-875r is cheaper than the 897, the 70D + 875r combo will cost you even slightly less than the DR-40 + 897, and will be a much, much better set of tools.
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I found a video while poking around online with the 875r with the DR-40 and was surprised by how much better it sounded in comparison without any external preamps, so it's definitely something I have my eye on. With a lot of the projects I'm working on currently and plan on working on there's probably about a 50/50 split between inside and outside situations, so it's good you mention that. What specifically is the difference between the two? If it's just a matter of the 897 giving slightly better quality then I might just go with the 875r because with the level I'm doing stuff at right now I don't really need perfect industry standard audio or whatever, I'm just looking for something that won't sound amateurish.

ggrantly said:
The easy and best fix IMHO is to add a mixer in the middle which will make a world of difference; more gain, better controls, bag friendly, and much much more. The dr40 will work well enough as a bit bucket, and the 897 will capture decent sound with exceptions, the mixer in the middle will minimize the weakness in each. Unfortunately, you will have to adjust your budget upwards to do this. Think about a used Sound Devices MixPre. And how much did you spend on your cam? Good audio isn't cheap, nuff said

If you want to skip the mixer, a better recorder like the Tascam DR680 has much stronger preamps, but again, will exceed your budget. Since I own both a 680 and 897, I can assure you this will work.

And another thought to ruin your budget some more; I hope you are aware that the 897 is not a good mic for indoor use unless the room is acousticly well dampened.

Grant
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The mixer you mentioned is a little bit too pricey for me at the moment, though I could go for the DR680.

So if these are the two main solutions you guys would recommend, should I go with the 875r + 70D or the 897 + DR680? Both are within a price range I'd be ok with.
 
On paper, the 897 being longer would imply better off-axis rejection, but in practice, the 875 is famous for being brilliant for its length and I doubt you would notice much difference in off-axis rejection except at the margins. On the other hand, the 875 is definitely going to be better for interiors - and as a matter of fact, while shotguns in general are not preferred for interiors, the 875 is about as good as it gets for a shotgun in interiors. It is also, as I mentioned, slightly more forgiving with placement for a less experienced boomer/sound person trying to capture actor dialogue (though of course a hyper or even a cardioid is used more traditionally). The 875 is used very widely for both interiors and exteriors. Personally, I would not hesitate in going with the 875r in your situation. The 70D is less money than the DR680, and frankly, for your needs, I suspect you would not benefit by picking the 680 over the 70D - the 680 gets you 8 tracks vs the 4 of the 70D, but if unless you are going to be using more than 4 mics then the 70D is plenty. Anyhow, for your situation, I would think a 70D plus the 875r would be the absolute best combo. There is one more option to save even more money, and that would be to go with the Tascam DR-60Dmkii - you save another $100, and you'll most likely not need more; however, for just another $100 for the 70D you get an extra two tracks and a built in omni mic and something that is more bag friendly, so I'd think that would be worth the extra $100 for a bit of future-proofing.
 
Sounds good to me. Would you recommend keeping the Cloudlifter CL-1? If it's completely unnecessary with that set up I'll end up sending it back most likely, but the impression I've gotten is that it's beneficial whether it's strictly necessary or not. Though I could be totally wrong on that, so if that's not the case I'll just return it.
 
The mic isn't the problem.

First - make sure the battery is fresh, or that you have at least +24v or real phantom power.

I get perfect results with that mic, a fresh battery in it, and a stoopid-cheap $90 Tascam DR-05. I even use a janky-ass XLR-to-mini cable to plug it into the cheap mini line/mic input on that thing. Then just boost the input gain and it's fine.

You do have to be clear about what you mean by the word "noise".
1. - Do you mean "electrical hums and static" like it's some AM radio from the 1970's?
2. - Or do you mean noise as in "all the background noises and sounds in the environment around the subject talking"?

Because if it's number 1. - then you're setting something up wrong.
If it's number 2. - then everything is working exactly perfectly.

If it's number 1. - then you may even have a bad piece of gear in there somewhere.

The DR-70 is much better - I have one too - I've never used the DR-40 so I don't know if the difference is going to be big.
I suppose it could be a weak link in their product line...

If you already bought the CloudLifter - keep it. Those things never hurt and always help at least a little.
 
Noise as in static hiss

But I dunno, I can try changing the batteries but I don't think that's the issue considering all the ones I'm using came straight out the package. I have like 3 different XLR cables lying around and I've tested all of them without any change. With a dynamic mic however, I don't seem to have the same issue (well I do still get some noise, but it's not nearly as noticeable). Plus I found a few other cases online of people complaining about that mic not performing well with this model.

I'll go do some more tests and try switching around the batteries and what not though, but the problems been pretty persistent regardless of how I set it up.
 
kman418 said:
Noise as in static hiss

But I dunno, I can try changing the batteries but I don't think that's the issue considering all the ones I'm using came straight out the package. I have like 3 different XLR cables lying around and I've tested all of them without any change. With a dynamic mic however, I don't seem to have the same issue (well I do still get some noise, but it's not nearly as noticeable). Plus I found a few other cases online of people complaining about that mic not performing well with this model.

I'll go do some more tests and try switching around the batteries and what not though, but the problems been pretty persistent regardless of how I set it up.
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OK...this helps a bit.

If there is significantly more hiss with the AT mic than with a dynamic mic then it may be a defective mic.
The same recorder should not show more hiss with a condenser mic than with a dynamic mic. A "teeny" bit, yeah...but any more than that points to other hardware problems.
It could also be a defect in the DR-40 that it is generating the hiss when paired with the AT mic. Exactly what I don't know, but these kinds of issues do pop up even with much more expensive audio gear.

That AT mic is a pretty darn good mic for the price, so before you trade the mic in try either a different recorder (like the DR-70, or borrow a ZOOM from somebody) or see if you can try a totally different brand shotgun condenser (like a Rode - those are comparable and really common - although I definitely prefer the AT myself), and see if the hiss goes away with the different condenser shotgun.

There's no easy answer without dropping a whole lot more cash...see what you can learn here.
 
A few things. The 680 really only has 6 tracks of analog input so you are really talking four VS six in the 680 VS Dr70.

I suspect that the problem has more to do with mic placement but? Very few inexperienced people get the mic anywhere near close enough, so they have to crank the gain to compensate. It could be a bad mic but these kinds of problems are generally about 90% operator error so the odds are you are doing something wrong.

I've been doing this a long time and my first assumption when I have a problem is that I screwed something up, and I'm almost always right...

So if your talent can't reach out and touch the mic it's too far away. After that Phantom power (but it sounds like you covered that). Next would be input gain. I haven't looked at my DR40 in awhile but some recorders have more than one place to set input gain/trim. Also make sure you are on mic not line.

I have used the DR40 with Oktava mics (not particularly hot) and I haven't had a problem with low level. Since you are also using a booster it's weird your levels are really low. So if your mic is close enough I would step through the settings to make sure you are on exterior mics, mic level, phantom on (preferably at 48V just to be safe), and that you are adjusting the input levels and not the headphone levels.

Lastly Tascam's headphone amps are not particularly quiet. So if you have only checked by playing back ON the DR40 I would try playing them on real speakers and you may be surprised.
 
kman418 said:
Sounds good to me. Would you recommend keeping the Cloudlifter CL-1? If it's completely unnecessary with that set up I'll end up sending it back most likely, but the impression I've gotten is that it's beneficial whether it's strictly necessary or not. Though I could be totally wrong on that, so if that's not the case I'll just return it.
Click to expand...

I don't see the point of the Cloudlifter. If you get the 70D, you should be set. There's always more gear to get, so I don't see the point of wasting money on gear you don't actually need. Do you have good headphones to monitor? I'd sooner invest invest in those - in the sound for film world, there are a couple specific ones that are favored. Get wind protection for sure, otherwise you won't get decent sound in exteriors. Don't overbuy gear. Believe me, there is a whole ton of gear that is essential that you're probably missing, so don't waste money on stuff that you don't strictly need. I would absolutely buy the AT-875r, and for that matter, I'd buy it used - every penny saved is important in view of how much other gear you'll need. I have two 875 mics, both bought used - one from B&H used section (you can get decent discounts through the B&H used section and they stand behind their products), and one on ebay. Save your money - there is a ton of stuff you'll absolutely need, so there's a lot of expenses in your future: assuming you have all your xlr cables, you will absolutely need wind protection and monitoring headphones at a bare, bare minimum (and really you should spring for a boom with a mount for the mic, although you can get by with the old proverbial painter's pole if desperate).
 
There is a very good chance that the quality (specifically the SNR) of the CloudLifter is superior to the mic preamp gain in a plastic consumer recorder of any make and model. I wouldn't send the CloudLifter back without confirming that it lacks any useful benefit. Especially for amateur and semi-pro video production, you need all the clean gain you can get.
 
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