Stop bitching about 25p already, it has it

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I think Panasonic is just trying to get everyone to move towards as few standards as possible. It costs them money to support so many formats. They probably did a cost analysis on it and said most film based movies are shot in NTSC countries so we will just offer 24p and let the PAL countries use 1080i if they really feel like they need 25p.

Maybe this is a good thing? Maybe now everyone will just start using 24p instead of using two formats that are so close together? Since most of this footage will be edited on computers it shouldn't matter what frame rate it is at.

The computer programs can handle any frame rate now and your display device should be refreshing way faster than 25 FPS anyway. 24 FPS will display just fine on a 50 HZ display. As long as the display has a refresh rate more than double that of the source you won't be able to tell the difference.
mpg, you are confusing acquisition with delivery. It is true that modern computers and computer-like devices (an ever-increasing number of electronic devices) make delivery rather easy - if something doesn't work, just issue an update.

However, frame rates and formats (progressive vs interlaced) are critical decisions at acquisition stage, which determine the look of footage and available output options at delivery stage. I have already expressed my opinion about using interlaced format for acquisition. It's fine as an option, but not an exclusive one. Target user of GH2 must absolutely have options for common frame rates in progressive full HD mode (24, 25, 50, 60). If for no other reason, but to open frontiers of creative expression for that segment of target user population that desires to venture there. It is quite clear that hardware and software are quite capable. What does Panasonic have to lose but sales to other competing brands? Protecting upper tier-products should not be a concern. I have to assume here that an upcoming professional-line product based on a similar technological platform is a desirable value proposition because it offers offers enough unique features that professionals really want, not because an otherwise capable lower end model is crippled. Or is it?
 
I think Panasonic is just trying to get everyone to move towards as few standards as possible. It costs them money to support so many formats. They probably did a cost analysis on it and said most film based movies are shot in NTSC countries so we will just offer 24p and let the PAL countries use 1080i if they really feel like they need 25p.

Do not see any reasons in this.
Panasonic marketing department just made right conslusion that true 50i is preferable by customers. And they are absolutely right.
Yes, we want 25p and 50p. But most consumers do not want them and do not need them.
It doesn not mean that panasonic could go with 50i only, as problems is that ordinal customers normally do not make reviews. :-)

Maybe this is a good thing? Maybe now everyone will just start using 24p instead of using two formats that are so close together? Since most of this footage will be edited on computers it shouldn't matter what frame rate it is at.

Framerate always matters.

The computer programs can handle any frame rate now and your display device should be refreshing way faster than 25 FPS anyway. 24 FPS will display just fine on a 50 HZ display. As long as the display has a refresh rate more than double that of the source you won't be able to tell the difference.

Of course, you'll be able to tell the difference between 25fps and 24fps at 50Hz display.
 
As long as the display has a refresh rate more than double that of the source you won't be able to tell the difference.


Perhaps you've not seen 25p on a 50hz monitor? :tongue: The motion remains filmic, but because every frame is shown for exactly the same amount of time, the motion is so, so much smoother and easier to follow with the eye.

Same goes for 24p on a 48hz display. NTSC has no true provision for filmic framerates, sadly.

Even on computers (which have used 60hz for years) can't display 24p OR 25p smoothly. Unless, of course, the monitor is set to a multiple of the desired framerate (using custom GPU timings).
 
Get your facts right before commenting matey. Besides if I wanted 50p id go for the tm700.

No boohoo-ing from me Im a happy gh1 owner (and using 25p thanks to the hack)...the only one boohoo-ing will be panasonic as I wont be buying a GH2 till they fix it :grin:

Which facts are wrong?

I want a hybrid that can take videos as good as a consumer camcorder and photos as good as a consumer dslr. We are very close but the bitrates and framerates don't seem to be there yet. I don't do anything with 24p so that's why the GH2 for me doesn't have 24mb/s, only 17.
 
Before he uploads actual footage and we'll check it in stream analyzers we can't be sure. Looking at 50i on modern TV or monitor with deinterlacer could make him think that he see 25p.
All known 1080 raw footage is either 1080p24 or 1080i50.

There could be a misunderstanding, that's true. Let's hear what PB has to say.
 
Which facts are wrong?
I think it's clear at this point that your reporting of Mr. Bloom's claims as if they were proven authoritative facts (i.e. "Stop bitching about 25p already, it has it") is the point where you went wrong.
 
I think it's clear at this point that your reporting of Mr. Bloom's claims as if they were proven authoritative facts (i.e. "Stop bitching about 25p already, it has it") is the point where you went wrong.

Actually in my post I stated "according to Philip Bloom" so I never reported it as a proven authoritative fact. So I still don't see where I went wrong because as far as I know it is still a fact that "according to Philip Bloom it has 25p", no?
 
Yes, but since it's too late now for you to revise the title of this thread appropriately, I'd suggest a moderator simply delete it.

So in your opinion the title of my thread should have been:

According to Philip Bloom the EU version has 25p recording. So shut up about that already!!

I told you you needed to complain about 50p/60p instead but nooo...

http://philipbloom.net/2010/09/30/my...lean-hdmi-out/
Well that's the post douchebag! Usually people click on the title which brings them to the post which holds the actual information. My title could have been "news about 25p", and that would have said even less. You should have found this out by now with your 313 posts, I'm appalled..

And I'm (PB is) still to be proven wrong.
 
yes, but since it's too late now for you to revise the title of this thread appropriately, i'd suggest a moderator simply delete it.

+1

BTW calling ipowell a douchebag? not very nice. The guys done a lot of testing for GH1 owners.
 
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I like 50i as long, as I can't get 50p!

Shoot in 50i an get good time-resolution -> plug it into Twixtor or some other good deinterlacer -> get 50p with minor quality loss.

The "only" thing crutial is: Make the 50i the best possible quality! 17mb/s won't do the trick :-(

(If the image quality of 50i is poor, 25p would be better)

Cheers
 
From PAListan...

From PAListan...

The computer programs can handle any frame rate now and your display device should be refreshing way faster than 25 FPS anyway. 24 FPS will display just fine on a 50 HZ display. As long as the display has a refresh rate more than double that of the source you won't be able to tell the difference.


This may be, but: Shoot 24 p or 30 p or (worse) 60 p in an European environment where you have artificial non-tungsten lighting and you will run into a lot of problems with pumping and flickering.

Look at this (excellent, not mine) video and at about 0:43 you will see what I mean - easiest to realize in the white shirt of the man in front of the mirror.

http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/15369320

The same applies if you shoot 25 p or 50p in an American grid. If you are lucky you have "flicker-free" lamps with electric ballasts where the frequency is so much accelerated that the pumping is not really recognizable. But cheaper units will give you this problems and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

24 p to 25 p also means, that you are 4% off in sync sound or you have to transcode in a complex process - shoot a music video with a 24 p camera and a 25 p and you are in deep doo-doo in no time.

Besides: It is a joke that Panasonic actually has in a way downgraded the GH2 for European users (we are only a market of 450 million people) or everybody else who lives in 50 Hz electrical grid-land. Especially as also TV (production side) in Europe is 25 p. And you don't need pull-down removal before editing.... and.... and... and...

If all this stays at it is, it's a clear sign that Panasonic wants to draw a red line between their consumer and their broadcast-product. If they do that they are stupid because they underestimate the (growing) grey zone between those two markets and they have not understood, that even "normal" consumers like to own a camera with some features that make this camera a probable "professional" product even if they would never want to use that.

It's soooo very 20th century thinking...... ;-)
 
+1

BTW calling ipowell a douchebag? not very nice. The guys done a lot of testing for GH1 owners.

You want the thread to be deleted because Philip Bloom has only twice stated that GH2 has 25p and not verified it for a third time? That's why they don't make people like you moderators.
 
I like 50i as long, as I can't get 50p!

Shoot in 50i an get good time-resolution -> plug it into Twixtor or some other good deinterlacer -> get 50p with minor quality loss.

Cheers

Now this hasn't been discussed nearly enough! Any experience about where it would stand compared to 50i from 50p and real 50p? In between? Is Twixtor the best deinterlacer? It just "guesses" half the lines then?
 
tcglog

I suggest you to stop now.
It is already enough.

I presume this has to do with my style of writing :evil: and not the factual content of my posts because I haven't stated anything that isn't true the whole time and have proven them wrong who claim I have. :engel017:
 
You want the thread to be deleted because Philip Bloom has only twice stated that GH2 has 25p and not verified it for a third time? That's why they don't make people like you moderators.

Oh my :grin:

Okay only concrete facts are on panasonics site
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh2/specifications.html

If you care to read real facts...

AVCHD

NTSC
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 24p (24H: 24Mbps, 24L: 17Mbps)
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 60i (sensor output is 60p) (FSH: 17 Mbps, FH: 13 Mbps)
[HD] 1,280 x 720, 60p (sensor output is 60p) (SH: 17 Mbps, H: 13 Mbps)

PAL
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 24p (24H: 24 Mbps, 24L: 17Mbps)
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 50i (sensor output is 50p) (FSH: 17 Mbps, FH: 13 Mbps)
[HD] 1,280 x 720, 50p (sensor output is 50p) (SH: 17 Mbps, H: 13 Mbps)

Bloom is only human...


This is boring... moving on....
 
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Oh my :grin:

Okay only concrete facts are on panasonics site
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh2/specifications.html

If you care to read real facts...

AVCHD

NTSC
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 24p (24H: 24Mbps, 24L: 17Mbps)
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 60i (sensor output is 60p) (FSH: 17 Mbps, FH: 13 Mbps)
[HD] 1,280 x 720, 60p (sensor output is 60p) (SH: 17 Mbps, H: 13 Mbps)

PAL
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 24p (24H: 24 Mbps, 24L: 17Mbps)
[Full HD] 1,920 x 1,080, 50i (sensor output is 50p) (FSH: 17 Mbps, FH: 13 Mbps)
[HD] 1,280 x 720, 50p (sensor output is 50p) (SH: 17 Mbps, H: 13 Mbps)

Bloom is only human...


This is boring... moving on....

OMG I can't believe this...

Ok, seriously, I don't know what IQ it requires to understand the following: I have never claimed that the GH2 includes 25p as a fact, what I have been claiming as a fact is that Philip Bloom twice stated that the GH2 includes 25p. Now please before you reply back again ask someone else to explain this to you or just give up.
 
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Now this hasn't been discussed nearly enough! Any experience about where it would stand compared to 50i from 50p and real 50p? In between? Is Twixtor the best deinterlacer? It just "guesses" half the lines then?

Till now I have only used Twixtor for super slow motion with 720p50 material. It works quite well with riggid bodys, but has trouble with e.g. fluids and rotation.

I have not used interlaced material yet, but if I can find some time I will try to extract it from 720p50 footage (any idea how to do this as easy as possible in Final Cut?). Or someone can give me a short file of interlaced footage...? I will let you know, but don't wait for it ;-)

The software is not guessing the missing lines, it is more like finding the right pixels in the previous and following frame (using 25p or 50i) to calculate there location in the picture and also interpolate from the surounding pixels (only 50i). In theory(!) 50i is better than 25p to get 50p as final result, but only if you have good footage. Any "mud" or compression artifacts will lead the software to false pixel matching, resulting in useless results.

In my opinion Twixtor is definitely not the best software. It is - as always - only a compromise between time and quality.
I still haven't found software where you have the option to render at "infinite" quality (e.g. some iterative algorithm that goes thru all of the sequence till there is no pixel left to improve - which will take a very very... long time to render).
 
Till now I have only used Twixtor for super slow motion with 720p50 material. It works quite well with riggid bodys, but has trouble with e.g. fluids and rotation.

I have not used interlaced material yet, but if I can find some time I will try to extract it from 720p50 footage (any idea how to do this as easy as possible in Final Cut?). Or someone can give me a short file of interlaced footage...? I will let you know, but don't wait for it ;-)

The software is not guessing the missing lines, it is more like finding the right pixels in the previous and following frame (using 25p or 50i) to calculate there location in the picture and also interpolate from the surounding pixels (only 50i). In theory(!) 50i is better than 25p to get 50p as final result, but only if you have good footage. Any "mud" or compression artifacts will lead the software to false pixel matching, resulting in useless results.

In my opinion Twixtor is definitely not the best software. It is - as always - only a compromise between time and quality.
I still haven't found software where you have the option to render at "infinite" quality (e.g. some iterative algorithm that goes thru all of the sequence till there is no pixel left to improve - which will take a very very... long time to render).

Thanks alot for the reply! If only I had some interlaced footage to send, hopefully someone does? I would be very interested in the results! I haven't used Final Cut either, I'm pretty much (useless) a beginner at video. I think Twixtor would do for me since the old laptop ain't got much powers left :)
 
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