Stereoscopic 3D Camera Rigs vs. Panasonic's new 3D camcorder
- Thread starter ramdop
- Start date
3D rig are used because the size of professional cameras usually exceed the standard spacing when they are mounted parallel.
3D rig is a pain to use, it is expensive, heavy, require lot of fine tuning, loose a lot of light. But the complexity of the system makes it also very powerful.
You can mount anything on a 3D rig from a pair of 7D to a pair of RED.
Camera with dual lenses are more simple, but this brings some limitation. No choice on lenses, spacing is fixed, you have to use what the camera gives in term of performance.
But if you take the same quality level camera and use a 3D rig or a parallel mount, the result should be the same.
3D rig is a pain to use, it is expensive, heavy, require lot of fine tuning, loose a lot of light. But the complexity of the system makes it also very powerful.
You can mount anything on a 3D rig from a pair of 7D to a pair of RED.
Camera with dual lenses are more simple, but this brings some limitation. No choice on lenses, spacing is fixed, you have to use what the camera gives in term of performance.
But if you take the same quality level camera and use a 3D rig or a parallel mount, the result should be the same.
well you need on a 3D rig, when lenses are superposed ? useless for 3D but some use it for HDR video.
either with a rig or parallel camera, you usually try to keep camera parallel. If you don't, they are lots of problems to solve.
Keystoning (pictures are not rectangular anymore and do not fully superpose), and with rig, you can get strange reflections with the mirror (unwanted polarisation).
you can imagine a stereoscopic scene like a box.your are looking into the box, 3D is the space from the front aperture of the box up to the back of the box.
the depth of the box is created by the spacing between the cameras. One of the problem is you cannot have the subject go out of the box closer than the spacing allows.
because picture left and right will diverge too much. With the standard camera spacing (around 65mm) this distance is usually around 5 meters.
That is why camera with dual lenses use small spacing. It is easier to build and allows subject to be closer (around 3 meters).
But again, if lense are close, subject can be closer, but depth will be less too, so the 3D effect will disappear faster (especially for small objects).
So the target for sterescopic shooting is to get the biggest lens distance according the closest subjet, that is why 3D rigs are far superior to fixed lenses cameras.
Then you got another problem to solve, it is the virtual projection screen distance.
going back to our box, you can imagine a transparent wall covering the front of the box. You do not see the cover, it is transparent, but you know that all what is behind this cover is IN the box,
all what is in front of that cover is OUT of the box.
Using convergence, you can move that cover back and forth, so the subject is not moving but you can choose to make it pop-out of the screen if you want (that is a gimmick form the 80's to have stuff popping out of the screen)
If you deal with convergence you also need to deal with focus, to make sure that all things at same depth from that transparent cover are in focus , except for few special 3d effects.
it is easy to check with anaglyph monitoring. All pictures details that have the green and red layer totally superposed must be the one that have the best focus.
In post, some people are cheating with the absence of convergence by shifting pictures but the effect is more like making lens closer than faking convergence.
either with a rig or parallel camera, you usually try to keep camera parallel. If you don't, they are lots of problems to solve.
Keystoning (pictures are not rectangular anymore and do not fully superpose), and with rig, you can get strange reflections with the mirror (unwanted polarisation).
you can imagine a stereoscopic scene like a box.your are looking into the box, 3D is the space from the front aperture of the box up to the back of the box.
the depth of the box is created by the spacing between the cameras. One of the problem is you cannot have the subject go out of the box closer than the spacing allows.
because picture left and right will diverge too much. With the standard camera spacing (around 65mm) this distance is usually around 5 meters.
That is why camera with dual lenses use small spacing. It is easier to build and allows subject to be closer (around 3 meters).
But again, if lense are close, subject can be closer, but depth will be less too, so the 3D effect will disappear faster (especially for small objects).
So the target for sterescopic shooting is to get the biggest lens distance according the closest subjet, that is why 3D rigs are far superior to fixed lenses cameras.
Then you got another problem to solve, it is the virtual projection screen distance.
going back to our box, you can imagine a transparent wall covering the front of the box. You do not see the cover, it is transparent, but you know that all what is behind this cover is IN the box,
all what is in front of that cover is OUT of the box.
Using convergence, you can move that cover back and forth, so the subject is not moving but you can choose to make it pop-out of the screen if you want (that is a gimmick form the 80's to have stuff popping out of the screen)
If you deal with convergence you also need to deal with focus, to make sure that all things at same depth from that transparent cover are in focus , except for few special 3d effects.
it is easy to check with anaglyph monitoring. All pictures details that have the green and red layer totally superposed must be the one that have the best focus.
In post, some people are cheating with the absence of convergence by shifting pictures but the effect is more like making lens closer than faking convergence.
Last edited:
well , it is a political choice.
if you use convergence, then you have to manage focus according to convergence + you still have to manage lens spacing.
that makes A LOT of things to manage at the same time.
So there are diffent choices applied here, all are cutting a bit corners, but if it is well done, nobody should notice it.
1) use fixed lens spacing, keep subject at the right distance and just care with focus.
you will be able to fake convergence in POST, but this can introduce artifacts and will at best make 3D effect less good.
2) use fixed lens spacing , add some convergence to allow subject being moved back and forth and just care with focus.
most simple parallel lenses 3D camera are using this scheme. Since we are accustomed to shoot subject
as close as 1 meter, these cameras adopted a small lens distance (usually less than 30mm) to allow shots as close as
3 meters.
3) use variable lens spacing to adapt with subject distance, just care with focus.
here you should not have a need to use convergence if lens spacing is correct. simple 3D rig use this config.
4) use everything.
again, doing correction in post is tricky, because if you get a great depth in picture (great space between lenses) , shifting pictures to get a correct foreground
will certainly bring problems with background (or reverse), so you better make it right while shooting.
Usually you shift picture in post to decrease ghosting.
Just imagine you shoot some close subject (5meters) with great lens distance (65mm).
You will get a lefft/right picture that does not superpose anywhere. If it is a contrasted image, you will get ghosting.
So to correct that, you will shift one image to make them superpose better on main subject.
So less ghosting, but at same time you will make 3D less deep and will need to crop picture And the risk is to have transferred ghosting to some object in the background or create perspective problems. So this kind of correction is ok for interior shots, when distance between foreground and background is not too big.
My opinion is the best is to shoot it right so you do not have to spend hours in post to correct silly errors.
if your cameras are properly aligned, you have chosen the correct lens distance, you can still add a bit of convergence to make it perfect, but this should not
be needed.
if you use convergence, then you have to manage focus according to convergence + you still have to manage lens spacing.
that makes A LOT of things to manage at the same time.
So there are diffent choices applied here, all are cutting a bit corners, but if it is well done, nobody should notice it.
1) use fixed lens spacing, keep subject at the right distance and just care with focus.
you will be able to fake convergence in POST, but this can introduce artifacts and will at best make 3D effect less good.
2) use fixed lens spacing , add some convergence to allow subject being moved back and forth and just care with focus.
most simple parallel lenses 3D camera are using this scheme. Since we are accustomed to shoot subject
as close as 1 meter, these cameras adopted a small lens distance (usually less than 30mm) to allow shots as close as
3 meters.
3) use variable lens spacing to adapt with subject distance, just care with focus.
here you should not have a need to use convergence if lens spacing is correct. simple 3D rig use this config.
4) use everything.
again, doing correction in post is tricky, because if you get a great depth in picture (great space between lenses) , shifting pictures to get a correct foreground
will certainly bring problems with background (or reverse), so you better make it right while shooting.
Usually you shift picture in post to decrease ghosting.
Just imagine you shoot some close subject (5meters) with great lens distance (65mm).
You will get a lefft/right picture that does not superpose anywhere. If it is a contrasted image, you will get ghosting.
So to correct that, you will shift one image to make them superpose better on main subject.
So less ghosting, but at same time you will make 3D less deep and will need to crop picture And the risk is to have transferred ghosting to some object in the background or create perspective problems. So this kind of correction is ok for interior shots, when distance between foreground and background is not too big.
My opinion is the best is to shoot it right so you do not have to spend hours in post to correct silly errors.
if your cameras are properly aligned, you have chosen the correct lens distance, you can still add a bit of convergence to make it perfect, but this should not
be needed.
Last edited:
leadguitarest
New member
Ill take my rig any day over the Panasonic. I have used the pana not to impressed because the camera lenses are fixed. I want to have the option of putting the cameras far apart when needed. Check out this, the shots with buildings the cameras were at least 4 feet apart.
http://youtu.be/ffb5CAy-bDA?hd=1
http://youtu.be/ffb5CAy-bDA?hd=1
Adjusting focal length and convergence with the new fixed-distance cameras
Adjusting focal length and convergence with the new fixed-distance cameras
The new fixed-spacing 3D cameras have a little more flexibility and advantages than is recognized here (ignoring the fact you can actually take these cameras to places you could not with the big rigs):
1. You can adjust convergence in the field making use of the extra pixels on the sensors.
2. The glasses-free 3D lcd enables you to view and thus adjust 3D effects in the field - you cannot do that with dual cameras in a rig without adding even more bulky equipment.
3. More importantly, these are not "fixed lens" cameras, they have zooms. Focal length also affects the window in which you can see 3D. At 35mm, it is about 4-16 feet, at 350mm it is about 25 to 65 feet. So, you can adjust the focal length depending on where the main focus of the shot is. Obviously, that also changes the perspective, and obviously that is not a complete substitute for the ability to change interaxial distance, but it does give more flexibility in 3D than is credited here.
And, the video taken with the flexible-distance gear provided flat as a pancake backgrounds, just like the "fixed lens" cameras. Trees in opening shot looked like cardboard cutouts. A comparison of the same scenes with any of the new cameras might have been instructive. I did view the video in anaglyph, so maybe the video is better than I was able to see.
Adjusting focal length and convergence with the new fixed-distance cameras
The new fixed-spacing 3D cameras have a little more flexibility and advantages than is recognized here (ignoring the fact you can actually take these cameras to places you could not with the big rigs):
1. You can adjust convergence in the field making use of the extra pixels on the sensors.
2. The glasses-free 3D lcd enables you to view and thus adjust 3D effects in the field - you cannot do that with dual cameras in a rig without adding even more bulky equipment.
3. More importantly, these are not "fixed lens" cameras, they have zooms. Focal length also affects the window in which you can see 3D. At 35mm, it is about 4-16 feet, at 350mm it is about 25 to 65 feet. So, you can adjust the focal length depending on where the main focus of the shot is. Obviously, that also changes the perspective, and obviously that is not a complete substitute for the ability to change interaxial distance, but it does give more flexibility in 3D than is credited here.
And, the video taken with the flexible-distance gear provided flat as a pancake backgrounds, just like the "fixed lens" cameras. Trees in opening shot looked like cardboard cutouts. A comparison of the same scenes with any of the new cameras might have been instructive. I did view the video in anaglyph, so maybe the video is better than I was able to see.
3D video examples from fixed-distance-lens camera
3D video examples from fixed-distance-lens camera
Each of these videos was taken in a time window of less than 2 hours with a fixed interaxial-distance zoom lens 3D camera; so no set up time. Not possible with big rigs. Lots of different examples of 3D - up close, vistas, movement of camera and subjects, zoom, daylight and night, indoors and outdoors, wide-angle, telephoto:
http://youtu.be/rhpUR4EZ3Ak?hd=1
http://youtu.be/oeFHeU6B3dY?hd=1
http://youtu.be/BydwuaarN2E?hd=1
http://youtu.be/MrB_6APr4QA?hd=1
http://youtu.be/tdhsOcDpDeY?hd=1
Could a big-rig, flexible-lens setup do better? Maybe, ignoring the practical matter of actually hauling the things around. But it seems to me the standard is whether the 3D beats 2D.
3D video examples from fixed-distance-lens camera
Each of these videos was taken in a time window of less than 2 hours with a fixed interaxial-distance zoom lens 3D camera; so no set up time. Not possible with big rigs. Lots of different examples of 3D - up close, vistas, movement of camera and subjects, zoom, daylight and night, indoors and outdoors, wide-angle, telephoto:
http://youtu.be/rhpUR4EZ3Ak?hd=1
http://youtu.be/oeFHeU6B3dY?hd=1
http://youtu.be/BydwuaarN2E?hd=1
http://youtu.be/MrB_6APr4QA?hd=1
http://youtu.be/tdhsOcDpDeY?hd=1
Could a big-rig, flexible-lens setup do better? Maybe, ignoring the practical matter of actually hauling the things around. But it seems to me the standard is whether the 3D beats 2D.
Last edited:
havasuphoto
Well-known member
what lcd screen are you using to view 3d without glasses??
sorry-don't keep up with the newest 3d technology because despite have some very nice/large lcd monitors for editing, I can't view it-therefore I haven't really even given it a second glance yet.
also, is the no glasses needed, 3d lcd screens, a viewing option on you tube?? I don't see it as a selection in the 3d types you can view-so i'm confused at to which one you would select to use that monitor?
If you had looked at the videos links, you would have seen information on the camera used: the Sony TD10. That has a 3.5" lcd that is autostereoscopic. It is also among the highest resolution lcd's of any camera.
The format of the video - 1/2-or full-frame sbs or whatever - and the type of 3D monitor are completely different. If you do not have a 3D monitor, then your only option is cross-eye or anaglyph (which requires 3D red/cyan glasses).
There are no monitors 20" or more that do not require some kind of 3D glasses. If you had one of those, selecting sbs on Youtube would give you 3D viewing experience. There are some relatively cheap passive-technology 3D monitors of 23" or 24". These only require the kind of glasses you get at the movie theater, no power needed (for the glasses).
In the field wearing 3D glasses is absurd, so having a good 3D monitor that does not require glasses is key to run and gun 3D video.
havasuphoto
Well-known member
Got it. Does You Tube give you any kind of insight at to how many of your viewers actually viewed your video in 3D, and which type they selected?
Just wondering about the potential audience out there, or lack thereof.
Just wondering about the potential audience out there, or lack thereof.
A good question. Youtube gives the number of views, but not the mode. I have only been uploading 3D videos recently, and those up a few weeks have gotten about 100-200 views. In comparison, my "test video" of the Sony Hx9v got over 6,300 views so far. Views depend on both interest in the specific camera (I suspect not many have a TD10 yet), the subject and in this case 3D. It is possible to view the 3D videos on Youtube in 1080p 2D.
Another 3D video using the fixed interaxial-lens camera: wide shots, close shots, intermediate shots using telephoto and wide angle. The "fixed-lens" 3D camera can do a lot of 3D!
http://youtu.be/uf__n-lY2Fc?hd=1
http://youtu.be/uf__n-lY2Fc?hd=1
3D video with vistas, close-ups and sports action
3D video with vistas, close-ups and sports action
A 3D video from the Sony TD10 ofpink flamingos, exotic birds, wild and in cages; swans, ducks, fountains, photographers, vistas, and rapid kung fu action with flags, balls, sticks and hands by adults and children in Kowloon Park, Hong Kong on a busy Sunday afternoon.
http://youtu.be/cku7vK1ZEVI?hd=1
3D video with vistas, close-ups and sports action
A 3D video from the Sony TD10 ofpink flamingos, exotic birds, wild and in cages; swans, ducks, fountains, photographers, vistas, and rapid kung fu action with flags, balls, sticks and hands by adults and children in Kowloon Park, Hong Kong on a busy Sunday afternoon.
http://youtu.be/cku7vK1ZEVI?hd=1
the sony TD10 is a great toy for 3D, because it one of the few point & shoot 3D camera available.
If you have shot with dual camera system and know the hassle it creates to have rushes on two memory card, the need to synchronize clips and align cameras,
the lack of 3D monitoring etc... and then you use the sony TD10, it is just like landing in paradise.
unfortunately it records only 3D is 1080i50 or 60, so this is useless if you plan to produce 3D MVC bluray (requiring 24p).
Sony has the same model as the TD10 in "pro" version that cost about twice the price (HXR-NX3D1 ), but as usually they added XLR for sound and few more features.
The great difference with these two camcorder is the pro version shoot 3D in 24p.
These 2 small camcorders are very simple and have almost no manual feature.
If you really need to go to the top, the PMW-TD300 (equivalent 3D cam of the EX3) is the best you can get today but it a bit overpriced.
If you have shot with dual camera system and know the hassle it creates to have rushes on two memory card, the need to synchronize clips and align cameras,
the lack of 3D monitoring etc... and then you use the sony TD10, it is just like landing in paradise.
unfortunately it records only 3D is 1080i50 or 60, so this is useless if you plan to produce 3D MVC bluray (requiring 24p).
Sony has the same model as the TD10 in "pro" version that cost about twice the price (HXR-NX3D1 ), but as usually they added XLR for sound and few more features.
The great difference with these two camcorder is the pro version shoot 3D in 24p.
These 2 small camcorders are very simple and have almost no manual feature.
If you really need to go to the top, the PMW-TD300 (equivalent 3D cam of the EX3) is the best you can get today but it a bit overpriced.
Last edited:
This is a little bit haughty, calling the TD10 a "point and shoot toy" and "useless" for producing 3D MVC bluray, incorrectly saying that 24p is "required".
1. Bluray is also 72060p. And Vegas Pro can make either a 108024p or a 72060p MVC bluray from the TD10 108060i clips right from the timeline. Since 24p is stupid and outdated and only supported by the arrogant
, there is the expectation that Sony will help make 108060i MVC an official Bluray spec, just like it recently made it an official AVCHD 3D spec. 108060i looks absolutely great for active sports in 3D and 24P is awful for that.
2. The manual features in 3D include manual adjustment of convergence (!), focus, AE shift, and exposure. It also has a 10X zoom. I would prefer to have white balance and shutter priority too.
1. Bluray is also 72060p. And Vegas Pro can make either a 108024p or a 72060p MVC bluray from the TD10 108060i clips right from the timeline. Since 24p is stupid and outdated and only supported by the arrogant
, there is the expectation that Sony will help make 108060i MVC an official Bluray spec, just like it recently made it an official AVCHD 3D spec. 108060i looks absolutely great for active sports in 3D and 24P is awful for that.2. The manual features in 3D include manual adjustment of convergence (!), focus, AE shift, and exposure. It also has a 10X zoom. I would prefer to have white balance and shutter priority too.
Sony TD10 indoor 3D video: dinosaurs and mummies and more
Sony TD10 indoor 3D video: dinosaurs and mummies and more
This one has dinosaurs; Egyptian mummies; a dodo (the bird); meteorites; colorful crystal rocks; ultraviolet glowing crystal rocks; live lizards, snakes, and colorful poisonous frogs from the rain forest; bug sculptures; a giant squid. Some pop-out.
The TD10 is ideally-suited for this kind of video: it does well in dim light, it has a wide-angle lens and the smallish interaxial distance is appropriate for the kinds of shots one takes indoors, where there are no vast vistas.
http://youtu.be/tQ_8xlxJQCM?hd=1
Sony TD10 indoor 3D video: dinosaurs and mummies and more
This one has dinosaurs; Egyptian mummies; a dodo (the bird); meteorites; colorful crystal rocks; ultraviolet glowing crystal rocks; live lizards, snakes, and colorful poisonous frogs from the rain forest; bug sculptures; a giant squid. Some pop-out.
The TD10 is ideally-suited for this kind of video: it does well in dim light, it has a wide-angle lens and the smallish interaxial distance is appropriate for the kinds of shots one takes indoors, where there are no vast vistas.
http://youtu.be/tQ_8xlxJQCM?hd=1
the TD10 a "point and shoot toy" and "useless" for producing 3D MVC bluray, incorrectly saying that 24p is "required".
The TD10 has absolutely no manual settings apart Zoom and 3D convergence, so it is in the low end of consumer camera range and you would probably not even consider
to purchase 2D camera with such specification for serious shooting. Fortunately, the 3D feature is great enough to save the deal. (as you can believe at first look)
BUT,
3D MVC bluray says it must be 720p60 or 1080p24. for instance and should you like it or not. So if you need to create a 3D MVC bluray, for instance, the TD10 is not delivering the right format.
Yes you can convert almost any framerate to another one with few mouse click, but if it can be acceptable in 2D, by doubling some frames, skipping some other, or merging fields,
is not in 3D where stereoscopy is very finnicky. The main concern of resizing 1080i to 720p is you need to deinterlace, and again, if it can be passable in 2D, it is often creates
artifacts in 3D that make video almost unusable.
so yes, if you really intend to deliver professional level 3D MVC bluray, the TD10 is out of the game, considering that most of 3D content available on bluray today is high quality and
expectation are high.
And yes it would be a little bit haughty if this camera was the only one available, but fortunately, Sony has corrected the mistake (so , no, probably they will not add 1080i60 to 3d MVC bluray specification soon), by realeasing the almost same camera with 24p feature.
For the rest (and probably most of us), if you just intend to publish video of your cat on 3D youtube, the TD10 is THE tool. cheap, simple , efficient.
The TD10 has absolutely no manual settings apart Zoom and 3D convergence, so it is in the low end of consumer camera range and you would probably not even consider
to purchase 2D camera with such specification for serious shooting. Fortunately, the 3D feature is great enough to save the deal. (as you can believe at first look)
BUT,
3D MVC bluray says it must be 720p60 or 1080p24. for instance and should you like it or not. So if you need to create a 3D MVC bluray, for instance, the TD10 is not delivering the right format.
Yes you can convert almost any framerate to another one with few mouse click, but if it can be acceptable in 2D, by doubling some frames, skipping some other, or merging fields,
is not in 3D where stereoscopy is very finnicky. The main concern of resizing 1080i to 720p is you need to deinterlace, and again, if it can be passable in 2D, it is often creates
artifacts in 3D that make video almost unusable.
so yes, if you really intend to deliver professional level 3D MVC bluray, the TD10 is out of the game, considering that most of 3D content available on bluray today is high quality and
expectation are high.
And yes it would be a little bit haughty if this camera was the only one available, but fortunately, Sony has corrected the mistake (so , no, probably they will not add 1080i60 to 3d MVC bluray specification soon), by realeasing the almost same camera with 24p feature.
For the rest (and probably most of us), if you just intend to publish video of your cat on 3D youtube, the TD10 is THE tool. cheap, simple , efficient.
Last edited:
"The TD10 has absolutely no manual settings apart (sic) Zoom and 3D convergence."
This is incorrect - it has in addition manual focus, AE shift, and manual exposure in 3D mode, as was said above (in 2D, it has manual WB, and shutter priority modes too, as well as 24p).
Bluray and Youtube are the most popular, but not the only way, to distribute video, especially video that is high quality. 108060p is not a bluray spec, but plenty of top people shoot with that and find ways other than bluray and Youtube to distribute.
I look forward to seeing your 3D cat videos, at 24p.
This is incorrect - it has in addition manual focus, AE shift, and manual exposure in 3D mode, as was said above (in 2D, it has manual WB, and shutter priority modes too, as well as 24p).
Bluray and Youtube are the most popular, but not the only way, to distribute video, especially video that is high quality. 108060p is not a bluray spec, but plenty of top people shoot with that and find ways other than bluray and Youtube to distribute.
I look forward to seeing your 3D cat videos, at 24p.