State of Gimbals late 2018 (Gforces)

M

morgan_moore

Major Contributor
Hi

Back to considering gimbal options mainly for car rigging or crane operation.. my ideal spec is thus..

1) Keeps horizon under Gforce during corners - it MUST have a GPS IMU therefore

2) small and light payload for GH5s, black magic micro etc (with rods, follow focus, matte box, and HD transmitter)

3) as configurable as possible.. for example something that you could turn off axes would be nice.

4) ideally voltage input not heaps of over priced batteries.

5) Second operator control with anything but a kids RC controller.

The Movi M5 seems to hit all of these marks and is 'affordable' in the used market, but I dont know if Movi support it or have given it new firmware or if it is simply shakey and non tunable by todays standards

Any other options?

DJI seem to announce GPS IMU for cornering but never deliver
 
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I'm eyeing one of the upcoming Gudsen Moza Air-X gimbals... it looks like it might fit the bill really nicely, but it's not due until Q1 of 2019 :-/
 
Sam, I'm disregarding your list because I don't know enough but why not a Movi Pro? How popular are they in UK atm? Would it give you any leverage in being hired?

It seems like gimbal motors can't just be adequate, they need to be overkill for acceptable results. E.g. all Ronin-S/C200 footage I've seen looks terrible.
 
Well that is an interesting question. My rambling answer follows two tracks sort of... Size, profit margin.

Ulitimately I follow a route that seems to be that of a minor rebel. My basic rebellion in cinematography that the way it is done now is stupidly 'heavy' on crew, crew costs (or underpaid crew) and footprint. My beleif is that a good small camera will come and really threaten the big footprint gripping market, just like LED threatens the HMI/Genny market (or will). Im a nut for small cameras, low power lighting.

A gimbal that only just goes through a domestic door seems inelgant. The exoskeletons and scaffolding people attach to themselvs to carry gimbals is not a high point of cinematic elegance.

I hate hand operating gimbals. My own Ronin M, BM Micro and super narrow home built cage/ring is basically the largest I like to operate - I can hold it extremely close to my body in the way that a good steadicam operator keeps the rig close to themselves. I still feel most hand carry shooting is best done on a steadicam and gimbals are 'remote heads'

My Ronin also works very well on a small jib that I built. And on the 'small' vehicle arm I built. It just has a failing when G forces are applied and with no powr input has to run on onboard proprietry batteries which is annoying - I want my batteries mass to be off the camera and down the jib or inside the car or in a backpack if handheld. Battery mass on the rig is insane.

Often in my office the concept is put forward that I should just get a loan and buy 'the thing' be that Red, Alexa Mini, CN17 Zoom, MOvi Pro, Black Arm or whatever (actually you need them all to play in 'that world')- rather than tinking with odd, often DIY kit.

Truth is I dont have the bookings to sustain a Cn17 or Alexa Mini/Movi Pro as profit centres. Id buy one of those items once I had a contracted booking that would pay 50% of it in rental.

I tried a Red/Ronin S combo.. it is comically large. Useful only for directed drama takes.

I know one 'Movi Pro' owner-operator who is not in the 'Alexa world' of high end drama, he has the rig but no follow focus or wireless setup.. Id suggest his business is under stress considering the rates he goes out at.

A loan driven business model can either propel one to where one want to be instantly, or break one. I buy my kit for cash currently - a MP would not be a cash purchase for me. A used M5 woulld be.

Id get an M5, strip it right down, sort external power and use it with a camera that is light enough to not stress the motors (thats the plan!)

I dont know if my own 'direction' will make or break me :)
 
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morgan_moore said:
Often in my office the concept is put forward that I should just get a loan and buy 'the thing' be that Red, Alexa Mini, CN17 Zoom, MOvi Pro, Black Arm or whatever (actually you need them all to play in 'that world')- rather than tinking with odd, often DIY kit.

Truth is I dont have the bookings to sustain a Cn17 or Alexa Mini/Movi Pro as profit centres. Id buy one of those items once I had a contracted booking that would pay 50% of it in rental.

I tried a Red/Ronin S combo.. it is comically large. Useful only for directed drama takes.

I know one 'Movi Pro' owner-operator who is not in the 'Alexa world' of high end drama, he has the rig but no follow focus or wireless setup.. Id suggest his business is under stress considering the rates he goes out at.

A loan driven business model can either propel one to where one want to be instantly, or break one. I buy my kit for cash currently - a MP would not be a cash purchase for me. A used M5 woulld be.
Click to expand...

I agree, I've always purchased everything with cash, never on credit. Does mean I live super frugal myself, so that I have that spare cash to afford much of what I want.

As tempting as it to hire purchase or get a loan for "the next level" (as has been suggested to me too, could say then buy the Sound Devices 688 or Sonosax SX-R4+ that I really want), I'd rather not get sucked down that hole.

The only rare circumstances which I might do this is if maybe I had a fully locked in signed contract (as I've made the mistake too often of buying gear for gigs that fell throw! No more) for something long form like a TV series which a) I need the gear for & b) would pay for the bulk of the cost of the gear itself
 
Wild topic shift.

Exactly - the contract says CN17, or whatever sound bit you need, and you can rental house it or get a loan and keep the item, knowing its 50% paid for.

Im not per se against loans. For example when I started (went freelance after resigning staff job) I needed a mac, neg scanner, vehichle and a camera (or I could not work!) I took a loan and was ready to shoot the next week, no summer flipping burgers or sticking with the day job for another year to save for that kit, while my contacts and offers went adrft. Loan wonderful loan. :)

Gimbals?
 
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rob norton said:
Sam, I'm disregarding your list because I don't know enough but why not a Movi Pro? ..Would it give you any leverage in being hired?
Click to expand...

Rob - it is interesting and valuable input to the thread.

My offer is gripping cameras of a certain mass, to some extent driven by my Miller Arrow 25 and 100mm bowl system. I dont do Alexa studios on Mitchell/Ronford Oconnor world. Should I match that in Miller gimbal land?

I think Ive been muddling the Movi Pro and Movi XL the pro is not crazy money.

I could chuck in 50% and loan the rest :)

Ive already paid for my remote focus, and wireless monitor, (and FS7) so they need the partner that brings them the most work!

Ive never really flown the FS7, because usually Ive been focussed on flying my Bcamera (Micro, GH4, borrowed FS5) - maybe the FS7 should become that B camera (on a bigger production where the A is the DOPs A camera)

Ill read up on the Movi pro.. you are correct that it certainly leverages some business potentiall vs other stuff.
(M5 still makes me have a 'Movi' which I feel holds some cache with production companies)

----

An annoying aside is Id like/consider this.. https://www.dji.com/force-pro?site=brandsite&from=nav which may help me operate camera on my partners drone - which pushes me towards DJI somewhat. I need to know which of his two or three drones it would actually work on.

In summary I need to build a grid..
Controller?
Bats?
Payload?
etc
 
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morgan_moore said:
Wild topic shift.

Exactly - the contract says CN17, or whatever sound bit you need, and you can rental house it or get a loan and keep the item, knowing its 50% paid for.

Im not per se against loans. For example when I started (went freelance after resigning staff job) I needed a mac, neg scanner, vehichle and a camera (or I could not work!) I took a loan and was ready to shoot the next week, no summer flipping burgers or sticking with the day job for another year to save for that kit, while my contacts and offers went adrft. Loan wonderful loan. :)
Click to expand...

Personally I'd have flipped burgers for another year instead, and done the freelance work on the weekends.

But if you have a rock solid business plan to pay it back asap, then sure use the loan
 
I worked at a sandwich delivery job to buy my first camera, about $2000 for a used Canon XH-A1s. Now I've got about a quarter million dollars of equipment and have never done a loan for any of it, pay as I go. I do use credit cards, but almost always pay them off before any interest kicks in.

The good thing about pay as you go is that you tend to level up your gear in unison with your experience and portfolio. Young kids who start out with a $50k loan, a Red, etc., then have no experience and portfolio to back that up, are often going to have trouble finding jobs that pay well enough to easily pay off that loan, as opposed to if they had spent $5-$10k on an A7s, etc., and gotten jobs that are better suited for where they are at at the time.

On the flip side, if you've been working a day job/non-freelance job in the industry for awhile, and already have lots of experience and portfolio to start getting good work with, then a loan could make more sense.
 
morgan_moore said:
Rob - it is interesting and valuable input to the thread.

My offer is gripping cameras of a certain mass, to some extent driven by my Miller Arrow 25 and 100mm bowl system. I dont do Alexa studios on Mitchell/Ronford Oconnor world. Should I match that in Miller gimbal land?

I think Ive been muddling the Movi Pro and Movi XL the pro is not crazy money.

I could chuck in 50% and loan the rest :)

Ive already paid for my remote focus, and wireless monitor, (and FS7) so they need the partner that brings them the most work!

Ive never really flown the FS7, because usually Ive been focussed on flying my Bcamera (Micro, GH4, borrowed FS5) - maybe the FS7 should become that B camera (on a bigger production where the A is the DOPs A camera)

Ill read up on the Movi pro.. you are correct that it certainly leverages some business potentiall vs other stuff.
(M5 still makes me have a 'Movi' which I feel holds some cache with production companies)

----

An annoying aside is Id like/consider this.. https://www.dji.com/force-pro?site=brandsite&from=nav which may help me operate camera on my partners drone - which pushes me towards DJI somewhat. I need to know which of his two or three drones it would actually work on.

In summary I need to build a grid..
Controller?
Bats?
Payload?
etc
Click to expand...

At the moment here the Movi Pro is pretty popular. I'd never hire an operator without a readyrig (or EZ rig etc.). People are completely kidding themselves thinking they can handhold a Movi Pro with any camera package for even a short amount of time. You're talking more about mounting, which is where the gimbals help productions rather than slow them down. Maybe you could pretend that you're about to pull the trigger or have pulled the trigger on a Movi Pro package and test the waters with existing clients to gauge some interest?

At some level I guess you're also up against drones, depending on the production's needs. There are certain situations where a drone will be better than a mounted gimbal and vice versa.

The force doesn't work with a DJI drone, only a DJI gimbal mounted to a drone?
 
rob norton said:
The force doesn't work with a DJI drone, only a DJI gimbal mounted to a drone?
Click to expand...

I think you are right ! - DJI are dicks - no ecosystem, controllers batteries whatever - Paul in my office has two DJI drones, the stormtrooper one and a new pocket one - and i a DJI gimbal - Id like to control them all with one device - and we'd like one set of batteries. A device they sell but it doesnt talk to my M or his drones.. perfect!

I think one temptation of the M5 is it is kind of hand built and can therefore be jacked with Vlocks or whatever - a dji will say 'battery error'

My Ronin is pretty good for 90% of shots anyway - I think thats because my Micro camera is 50% of the mass limit or maybe less.

Not much feedback from gimbal/vehicle users. Is it such a niche to want to corner in a vehicle?

I would not want an ez rig, I think my homebuilt ring is best.. it is tight on the gimbal and the monitor is forward so I can handhold it tight to the body. I also have a Cstand with receiver to instantly lose it between takes.

Im very much talking rehearsed takes not wandering around a public event.. a zingbong crane is good for that.
 
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Hey Sam,

All of my vehicle work has been with the Ronin-M (usually in connection to my Rigwheels Cloud Mount). Depending on where it is mounted and what you're doing you can get some pretty good stuff, but I REALLY want to upgrade to a Ronin-MX because of how limiting the Ronin-M is when making any sort of turns.

In my experience the Ronin-M can handle my C100/C200B mounted on the hood or roof where it is getting direct resistance from the wind up to about 40-45 mph before the motors give out. If I have it mounted to the back of my vehicle where it is being protected from the wind I've gotten it up to 60 mph or so (which is really faster than I feel comfortable going with a camera hanging from my car anyways.....). I imagine the MX would be stronger in the direct wind, but have nothing to back this up.

However, I know the MX was created specifically to handle momentum and g-forces from drastic turns better (ala drone stuff), and I really want to test this out, but I literally don't know a single person that owns one.

Anytime I've used my Ronin-M on car stuff it's been a little bit of a crap shoot as I have to turn the opposite way on the remote controller when the vehicle turns to even have a chance of it holding the frame and/or not spin completely around and then be facing the back of my car. Even then eventually I end up losing my full 180 degrees of turning as the Ronin-M eventually gets itself all turned around. On almost anything other than driving straight, I've also had to punch in a bit in post and correct the horizon - sometimes key framing the correction as the Ronin-M eventually catches up.

In short, not the most professional solution, but it sounds like I'm a little bit like you and really enjoy the challenge of finding maximum output through very strategic and underdog style input, which is why I'm really intrigued by the Ronin-MX (and haven't spent 2 seconds researching the MoviPro or Ronin2.....)
 
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Hi

Thanks for your input :)

Ref the Ronin Mx.. this is my understanding.

The key to holding horizon (under cornering G) is having a GPS unit.

The Ronin MX DOES NOT have this, unlike early promo material implied. The Matrice Drone that it attaches to gives it GPS data in drone mode.

A GPS accesory was advertised, but never materialised.

WIthout this accessory I would not be assuming the MX to be more than 5% better than the M.

Last week DJI announced accessories for the Ronin S, including a GPS unit for less than $100

It is not clear if this works with the M or MX

So the value of going M to MX is far from clear. Right now.

THe Movi M5/10/15 have gps, M5 is available cheap.

Freefly are (like DJI) crap at documentation and it is not clear if the 5/10/15 are still supported or running on latest Movi Firmware.

As for investigating the Ronin 2 (GPS) and Movi Pro (2 GPS)

I am investigating both. Especially some used and open box Ronin 2. (I was told by a hollywood type that he thought the R2 was better than the Mpro)

My fundamental struggles with the R2 and Pro are..
-Are they too big/heavy to put on a small crane or operate handheld
-Will I get my money back
VS
-'Buy expensive buy once'

Spending on a Ronin MX and it failing to satisfy loses $1500 and gets one no where.

Buying a Ronin 2 and getting some dry hires could get one to a 'good place' for only $2-3k more
 
my current spreadsheet shows this in UKP

Ronin 2 (available today)
£5000

The other option

ronin S £669.00
Force Pro control £916.00
Satellite Wongle £100.00 (NOT Released)
Clamps £100.00

Zcam E2 £1,566.00 (Unknownd delivery time)
Total £3,351.00

So its £1500 more to offer Ronin2 and FS7 than Ronin S/ZcamE2

My feeling is ronin2/fs7 is way more marketable.. while I think RoninS/Zcam E2 could be far better but a harder sell to prducers.. But it is not much cheaper.
(I could put the RsZcam combo on a really long jib for example and the E2 does 120-4k)

--
My jib op friend is a fan of oversizing.. his comment was he wants to be able to hold not just the specified camera but a Cooke or FIZ, some soundie gack and even a fill LED as real production often add all this lot without the producer speccing it. A valid thought.
 
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Wire tangle is as you mentioned a problem on The Ronin M. I have used a gopro to and second monitor to see where the ronin is facing.

The ronin 2 could probably be 'wireless' as it could hold both my FS7 and my transmitter and Focus motor in the cage which would allow infinite spins.

You will note the monitor for the goPro.. (from this page.. http://framedogs.com/gimbal-arm/)
View attachment 133708
 
morgan_moore said:
Hi

Ref the Ronin Mx.. this is my understanding.

The key to holding horizon (under cornering G) is having a GPS unit.

The Ronin MX DOES NOT have this, unlike early promo material implied.
Click to expand...


Interesting, I did not know that..... However, I remember playing with the MX at NAB when it first came out a few years ago and the rep did say the motor is a lot stronger overall and could also handle the camera not being perfectly balanced no problem (demo'd a DSLR that was completely unbalanced - not even close and turned it on and it was fine). I imagine this would at least help somewhat when it comes to the G-Force thing.... maybe not perfect horizons, but would probably withstand the momentum of a car turning causing the gimbal to turn as well?
 
The trouble is if the main sensor is fooled by G force then the motors (powerful or not) will not know where the horizon is and drive the gimbal to the wrong place.

I see a poor sensing system as the problem not motor strength.

---

Im currently all excited about Movi Pro. Apparently only 300g heavier than the Ronin, with GPS units top and bottom. Reading up on the Ronin2 it seems highly capable but just too heavy.
Batteries do not get a good write up however on the Movi Pro.

Initially in this thread I had confused the cost of Movi Pro with the cost of Movi XL.

I was going to put project gimbal on hold til the new year (I NEED TO FINISH MY MOCO RIG!!!) but Im in convo about some jib job right now.
 
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Rob - clearly you know the Movi Pro.

My intention I think my largest 'package' would be..

FS7, animon transmitter, ronin Focus motor, Fuji mk 18-50 zoom

Operators monitor (DP502)

Do you think that sounds practical??

Id like to minimise batteries (and mass) but could for example use a BP30 on the Fs7 or other options like that.
i have wads of bp30s, bp60s and also bp->dtap plates

THanks

S
 
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