See, even that is better.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens
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rob norton
Veteran
minor issues, possible spoilers:
Does Han Solo's make up hit you in the face for the 3d version? It looked like Leia missed the memo she'd even be appearing in a movie...
At the beginning, I thought Kylo Ren was going to make Poe walk right into the frozen blue laser from his own blaster, that would have made killing him off worth it.
Does Han Solo's make up hit you in the face for the 3d version? It looked like Leia missed the memo she'd even be appearing in a movie...
At the beginning, I thought Kylo Ren was going to make Poe walk right into the frozen blue laser from his own blaster, that would have made killing him off worth it.
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QuickHitRecord
Veteran
***Possible spoilers***
That would have been a great introduction to Kylo Ren. Poe was not a well-developed character and his resurfacing later in the film really doesn't add much.
that explains it! Thanks
Vultch
Well-known member
Star Wars the force awakens - same as it ever was.
Spolier alert - do not read any further if you have not seen it
Deathstar - check (death planet)
Cute side kick R2D2 - check BB8
Cantana bar scene - check
Final scene with X wing fighters flying along heavily defended site - check
etc etc
Its a re write of the first one, still a great film thou but same as it ever was.
Spolier alert - do not read any further if you have not seen it
Deathstar - check (death planet)
Cute side kick R2D2 - check BB8
Cantana bar scene - check
Final scene with X wing fighters flying along heavily defended site - check
etc etc
Its a re write of the first one, still a great film thou but same as it ever was.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I'm not so sure about this. Rey was deposited on a desolate backwater planet to keep her safe, just as Luke & Leia were hidden in the past. Max von Sydow was likely protecting her from afar just like Obiwan did for Luke.
R2D2 likely went into "low power mode" because Luke told him to. R2 didn't reactivate when BB8 make contact. The moment Rey landed on the planet R2 came back to life with the map. And then Rey went to find Luke.
Star Wars has always been about a Hero's Journey. The original trilogy was about Luke's journey, and along with the prequels they are the greater arc of the father's downfall and redemption. This is the story of Rey's quest, and of her cousin Kylo's lost path, perhaps to damnation, perhaps to redemption.
I'm totally good with that, but I did find the film a bit meandering.
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On a searate note, I thought Ren's character and Daisy Ridley's performance was great. Sorry for the boys who don't get to role play -- let's hear it for all the girls who get to play heros instead of wear metal bikinis. That's terrific and I'd watch films about her character anytime.
Not as thrilled about Finn. Just not inspiring.
This drives me nuts.
Leia was BADASS. Rey has MILES to go to live up to Leia.
The first three things Leia did was hide the Death Star plans, shoot a Stormtrooper, and then insult the most feared man in the galaxy to his face. In her first five minutes.
Then she withstood torture, gave up her home planet to protect the rebellion, insulted the only man besides the Emperor the most feared man in the galaxy deferred to, kicked a lot more Stormtrooper ass while the boys watched, then helped plan and direct the military assault on the Death Star.
That's just the first movie. She only increased her badassery as the movies went on.
If all you see Leia as is a "metal bikini," you weren't watching. I mean, for crying out loud . . . how did she end UP in the metal bikini? What did she do to get there? Then what did she do when the time came, while wearing it?
Leia was the original archetype of strong female action hero.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I will totally give you the fact that Leia was a strong character, a person of action. But in the context of the myth story of Star Wars, she was the princess to be rescued from the tower. And she did find herself in that metal bikini, which has become the single most popular way she is remembered historically in pop culture (along with the earmuff hairdo).
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is Rey's journey. Hell, it's in her that the Force is awakening! We don't understand what happened to Finn that he suddenly made so drastic a change in his life. I mean really, just one raid on a village too many? His story arc is very uneven and unclear. But it is in Rey that we see an evolution. She is the one we follow. Leia was tough and tough-talking, but Rey will grow to an archetype.
No one would say that the story of the original Star Wars trilogy is about a tough princess who overcomes adversity and some major father issues to defeat an evil empire and find true love with a bad boy along the way. I mean, it's there, but c'mon. But I do believe the arc of the episodes 7-9 will be this orphaned girl who grows to become the great warrior savior for herself, humanity, her father, and finally the balance to the Force. She is the Yin to her cousin's Yang, whom she will likely either destroy or redeem in the end. That's her hero's journey, and frankly it's a pretty intense one compared to Leia's.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is Rey's journey. Hell, it's in her that the Force is awakening! We don't understand what happened to Finn that he suddenly made so drastic a change in his life. I mean really, just one raid on a village too many? His story arc is very uneven and unclear. But it is in Rey that we see an evolution. She is the one we follow. Leia was tough and tough-talking, but Rey will grow to an archetype.
No one would say that the story of the original Star Wars trilogy is about a tough princess who overcomes adversity and some major father issues to defeat an evil empire and find true love with a bad boy along the way. I mean, it's there, but c'mon. But I do believe the arc of the episodes 7-9 will be this orphaned girl who grows to become the great warrior savior for herself, humanity, her father, and finally the balance to the Force. She is the Yin to her cousin's Yang, whom she will likely either destroy or redeem in the end. That's her hero's journey, and frankly it's a pretty intense one compared to Leia's.
No, Leia was not the main protagonist, but she was certainly a hero, and a very strong one at that. She was no damsel in distress. In fact, the men were often in a lot more distress than she was.
Any girl -- or boy, for that matter -- would do quite well with Leia as a role model.
It just annoys me that there's all this stuff out there right now about how Rey is supposedly the first strong female hero, not only in Star Wars, but apparently also in science fiction. It's complete bullsh*t.
Rey ain't the first -- she's even FAR from being the first female main protagonist -- and she, comparatively, ain't really all that. Not yet, anyway.
Any girl -- or boy, for that matter -- would do quite well with Leia as a role model.
It just annoys me that there's all this stuff out there right now about how Rey is supposedly the first strong female hero, not only in Star Wars, but apparently also in science fiction. It's complete bullsh*t.
Rey ain't the first -- she's even FAR from being the first female main protagonist -- and she, comparatively, ain't really all that. Not yet, anyway.
adkimery
Veteran
Requiring rescue doesn't automatically make someone a damsel in distress though. Was Han a damsel in distress because of his situation early in Jedi? Was Morpheus a damsel in distress because Neo and Trinity had to save him from the Agents?
I think in ANH they intentionally poked fun of the damsel in distress stereotype and used it as a red herring. The audience is led to believe that Leia needs a knight in shinning armor, but the rescuers get in over their heads and it took everyone fighting together (including the 'damsel') in order to escape from the Death Star. The whole rescue was mainly a plot device to get Obi Wan killed by Vader anyway.
I've seen other people say this and I don't think Finn needed a lot of backstory. Do we need a lot of explanation about why someone is against killing unarmed civilizations and wants to flee an organization that cheerily commits genocide on a planetary scale? I only saw the movie once but I thought they made it clear that the brainwashing used to 'create' stormtroppers doesn't always stick so Finn isn't special or superhuman in anyway, he's just one of the people that failed the brainwashing. Now, if Finn was a high ranking Imperial officer that had a change of heart after decades of despicable acts *that* could require a bit of backstory, but in the movie Finn is just a greenhorn from the sanitation deptartment that, like some others, couldn't be brainwashed into being a murderous automaton.
-Andrew
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I certainly never claimed Rey was the first sci-fi strong female protagonist. There have been many, and I think Sigourney Weaver must certainly be wondering "What am I, chopped liver?" if people are claiming this.
Leia is a great, strong character. Absolutely. But she is not the main character of the story, the hero that we are supposed to identify with and latch onto for the ride. That is Luke. He is the one who grows during the course of the tale. It is his story. Leia is a main character but she is not the lead character. I am happy to see Rey as the lead character in The Force Awakens. That's all I'm trying to say.
By they way, on a completely separate note, this is a classic case of why casting is so important. I find Daisy Ridley as Rey much more interesting and compelling than I do John Boyega as Finn. It's not that she is a better actor or than she is a better written character or even that she is physically more attractive. I think they both seem suitably good actors, the roles are clear enough once established and both are good looking without being model-perfect. But Ms. Ridley is one of those people who holds my attention on screen, at least in this role. I've felt this before both with certain male and female actors in certain roles. They just appear interesting and compelling -- you want to watch them. I remember watching Boys Don't Cry and being fascinated by Chloe Sevigny. She was just interesting. It's not a Major Movie Star thing, like Harrison Ford being charismatic. To me it's one of those things where you connect a character and a role and it just clicks, like Henry Thomas as Elliot in E.T. I'm not crushing on Daisy Ridley ere, I just found her as Rey compelling to watch even when the movie dragged a bit n the second half. That's good casting.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Finn was literally bred to be a slave of the First Order. He didn't even have a name, just a serial number. He was programed from birth, and it felt like one day he just turned. I'm sure there's more to it, but that's how it felt.
No, you didn't say anything about there being no strong characters in all of sci-fi -- clearly Ripley is a major example -- but I've read several articles gushing about Rey where they pretty much did.
But I was going by what you did say:
You were completely dismissing Leia as being nothing more THAN that metal bikini. You were saying that Leia wasn't a hero.
And I'm saying, Rey hasn't lived up to Leia yet. Rey is not yet the hero Leia was. She hasn't lived up to Leia in the first movie yet, let alone what Leia became in the subsequent movies. Any girl should be quite proud to play Leia, because she'd be playing a great hero.
And so what if Leia wasn't the main protagonist? What difference does it make? Was Han Solo diminished in the slightest -- did little boys for some reason not want to play him -- because he wasn't the main protagonist, either? Of course they didn't. Solo kicked ass in his own right, just like Leia did.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I know speaking for my own self, I was 14 when Star Wars came out, and I couldn't be bothered to give a fig about Luke Skywalker in the first film. It was all about Han Solo for me. Luke didn't really graduate to becoming a character I was highly interested in until ROTJ. He was definitely the least interesting of the three leads.
Luke is who George intended for the main character to be, but -- it didn't really work, in the context of a standalone film. In the context of the trilogy, yes, in retrospect, he was obviously and clearly the main character. But he was weak in context of the first film; he didn't even show up on screen for the first, what, 10 minutes?
In fact, if you read the opening crawl, one might be forgiven for thinking that Leia actually was supposed to be the lead character. She's the only person mentioned by name in the opening crawl; Luke isn't anywhere in it.
So we know who Leia is, we know what she wants, and we know what the obstacles are towards her obtaining it. That's main character setup, right there. Any student of screenwriting would likely come to the same conclusion: Leia is the main character, based on the first 10 minutes of the film. Luke shows up 10 minutes later, and whines for the next 20 minutes. He doesn't establish any sort of actual wish or desire or motive until he tells Ben he wants to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi. Even then, what does he do? Continue to whine. Whines about how much Han will charge them, gets himself nearly killed in a barfight (where Luke was the damsel in distress and Ben had to save him), then whines about the blast shield being down ("How am I supposed to fight?"). Luke doesn't do anything noteworthy, or heroic, at all, until he makes the decision to rescue the princess. And that's halfway through the film. He's an unlikeable whiny snot for literally the first half the film, with no clear purpose, no direction, no goal, and no definition of obstacles towards obtaining that goal, until that moment.
So all I'm getting at is -- calling Luke the "hero" of the first film, is -- well, it's technically correct (in context of the original trilogy) but not nearly so clear when viewed as a standalone film. It is far from a classic hero's journey structure, and as I remember it, Campbell fought with Lucas over not having Luke even on screen in the beginning. Campbell thought it was a mistake, and (for sake of clarity in the story) I think he was right. Doesn't stop Star Wars from being my favorite film of all time, just saying that it doesn't fit the classic mold nearly as well as it might have.
As for Rey? Jury's way, way out on that one. I think it'll end up like in SW:ANH, it'll take the full arc of this third trilogy before we really see how she fits in. Her actions in the first film stretch believability way past the snapping point, but maybe when viewed in context of the full trilogy she'll be a true heroic figure. Even so, what do we know of her? What does she want? All we know is -- she wants to sit around and wait for her family to come home. Totally passive. Contrast that with Kylo Ren, who has some very stated, very clear goals -- he wants to hunt down Luke Skywalker, he wants to destroy the last of the Jedi, he has clear motivations, he has a complex backstory, and he's taking action to accomplish them. What do we know of Rey? Nothing, really. She makes an indefensible decision to remain in poverty rather than sell BB8, not even knowing why (yes, we'll later intuit that it was the Force guiding her decision, but at the time, how is that believable? Selling this droid she found would have given her, what, a couple of years' pay, in one swoop?) She gets captured (the ol' damsel in distress thing again) and needs to be rescued by the men. She somehow magically defeats Kylo, in a completely unbelievable scene, but at least that was heroic. Will she blossom into a full-fledged hero over the course of the trilogy? Entirely possible. But in context of the first film by itself, she didn't come across to me as a hero who's on a big journey, she came across as someone who doesn't know what they want or what she's doing, thrust in the middle of a mess. She came across as generally reactive, not proactive. That's kind of the opposite of a hero's journey. A hero's journey, by definition, is a journey that you go on, not a random smattering of events that happen around you.
If I'm not mistaken, the only truly proactive thing she did was set out to find Luke. And that's at the 98% point of the first film. Now, if looking at it from a Hero's Journey perspective of all three films as one story, that would put it at about the 33% mark, a bit late for the end of the first act but within the ballpark. And maybe that's where she finds out that she's Kylo's cousin and was trained by Luke at the academy and he saved her instead of slaughtering her and wiped her mind and then we'll understand that that's how she knew how to use the force and whatnot, and it'll all make more sense. And at that point she might make a conscious choice to enter the underworld and start her hero's journey. But if so, that's gonna have to wait for the second film.
I'm perfectly willing to entertain that by the end of the third film she may end up being a first-tier classic hero. I just don't think that was established well at all in this first film.
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combatentropy
Veteran
SPOILER ALERT! In fact if you haven't seen the movie, why are you even here?
Wasn't this his first battle?
I liked:
- The lighting. I feel it was a step up from the originals. Kudos to J. J. Abrams and cinematographer Daniel Mindel.
- the inclusion of the old cast
- Adam Driver. The guy oozes talent. He's delightful to watch and listen to.
- Daisy Ridley. Also strong.
There were many other things I appreciated, but I didn't want this to be an encyclopedic entry, just a quick shout.
I was a little disappointed by:
- The plot. When I rewatched Jedi as an adult, I thought, the new Death Star is cool, and the ending bigger and better, but couldn't they have thought of something new? Guess what I thought about this one then? It's as if they thought we wouldn't have just rewatched all the originals before seeing this. But believe it or not, this bothered me less the second time I saw Force Awakens. Yes, I've seen it twice already and enjoyed it more the second time
- Some the characters were not fleshed out. Maybe if they had spent less time rehashing the original trilogy, they could have developed them more. Or maybe even combined them with other characters. I'm thinking of Poe Dameron, General Hux, and Captain Phasma. I guess it's not the worse thing in the world if the story leaves you hungry for more. The original trilogy did the same thing with Boba Fett. Everyone was like, who was that?
Wasn't this his first battle?
I liked:
- The lighting. I feel it was a step up from the originals. Kudos to J. J. Abrams and cinematographer Daniel Mindel.
- the inclusion of the old cast
- Adam Driver. The guy oozes talent. He's delightful to watch and listen to.
- Daisy Ridley. Also strong.
There were many other things I appreciated, but I didn't want this to be an encyclopedic entry, just a quick shout.
I was a little disappointed by:
- The plot. When I rewatched Jedi as an adult, I thought, the new Death Star is cool, and the ending bigger and better, but couldn't they have thought of something new? Guess what I thought about this one then? It's as if they thought we wouldn't have just rewatched all the originals before seeing this. But believe it or not, this bothered me less the second time I saw Force Awakens. Yes, I've seen it twice already and enjoyed it more the second time
- Some the characters were not fleshed out. Maybe if they had spent less time rehashing the original trilogy, they could have developed them more. Or maybe even combined them with other characters. I'm thinking of Poe Dameron, General Hux, and Captain Phasma. I guess it's not the worse thing in the world if the story leaves you hungry for more. The original trilogy did the same thing with Boba Fett. Everyone was like, who was that?
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Plus . . . there's certainly a strong case to be made that Leia was in the metal bikini by design all along. How else was she going to get close enough to Jabba to finish him off?
Entirely agreed. Rey wasn't all that impressive until the (ridiculous) light saber duel. Sure, a mechanical prodigy like her grandfather, a skilled natural pilot like her grandfather and father, but also defeatist and whiny like both of them.
Ryan Farnes
Well-known member
Star Wars spoilers.
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[EDIT: I basically talk about my disappointment in the film below. Feel free to have absorbed that and skip my post if you want.]
So, I'm asked in the theater immediately following, "What did you think?" I just shook my head from side to side. I didn't hate it, but I was hoping for something more.
My "review" of the first teaser, parsed out with comments after having seen it today.
I felt like a lot of the spaceships and space shots were fun, but there was some conspicuously over the top silliness. (Millenium Falcon = hardwood forest lawn mower anyone?)
Definitely had a non-serious vibe to it with young actors playing supreme admirals. Domhnall Gleeson's character should be another 20 years older, shouldn't he?
So, I think this was Andy Serkis' voice who voices the Snoke super villain? Le sigh. CGI for the super villain.
The Kylo Ren character actually turned out ok, if you account for the fact that he is a turncoat young Jedi...chasing the shadow of his grandfather. He worked ok for me to an extent. I have absolutely no idea why they let him kill his father. This is the character so beloved that he is getting the first origin film, carries much of the original trilogy and carries this film's plot on his shoulders and they let him be killed. I just don't get it.
This still confuses me. This planet seems like a cheap wall calendar setting with nice snowy mountains. Pretty, and maybe would be interesting, but instead of keeping it interesting, they go with hardwood deciduous forest for the scenes that happen on the ground near the base.
Still don't understand this lightsaber other than its trying hard to do something different and reinvent something that already works. But it chops wood pretty good at least...
Of course...opening scene, the "resistence villagers" are shooting weird blue laser weapons. I offered this as a hyperbolic example, and Abrams went and did it.
When Chewy and Han are planting the explosives, I had the thought, "yeah, camera is constantly moving. It is noticeable." Definitely has his fingerprints on it. Feels like his Trek films set in the Star Wars universe.
I stand corrected here. (although, I don't think that shot made it into the actual film, did it?) BB8 is an great character and refresh to the astromech droid.
I feel the same way after seeing the whole thing. I'm even surprised that Williams didn't have a memorable score.
I'm holding out hope for Rogue One.
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[EDIT: I basically talk about my disappointment in the film below. Feel free to have absorbed that and skip my post if you want.
]So, I'm asked in the theater immediately following, "What did you think?" I just shook my head from side to side. I didn't hate it, but I was hoping for something more.
My "review" of the first teaser, parsed out with comments after having seen it today.
I felt like a lot of the spaceships and space shots were fun, but there was some conspicuously over the top silliness. (Millenium Falcon = hardwood forest lawn mower anyone?)
Definitely had a non-serious vibe to it with young actors playing supreme admirals. Domhnall Gleeson's character should be another 20 years older, shouldn't he?
So, I think this was Andy Serkis' voice who voices the Snoke super villain? Le sigh. CGI for the super villain.
The Kylo Ren character actually turned out ok, if you account for the fact that he is a turncoat young Jedi...chasing the shadow of his grandfather. He worked ok for me to an extent. I have absolutely no idea why they let him kill his father. This is the character so beloved that he is getting the first origin film, carries much of the original trilogy and carries this film's plot on his shoulders and they let him be killed. I just don't get it.
This still confuses me. This planet seems like a cheap wall calendar setting with nice snowy mountains. Pretty, and maybe would be interesting, but instead of keeping it interesting, they go with hardwood deciduous forest for the scenes that happen on the ground near the base.
Still don't understand this lightsaber other than its trying hard to do something different and reinvent something that already works. But it chops wood pretty good at least...
Of course...opening scene, the "resistence villagers" are shooting weird blue laser weapons. I offered this as a hyperbolic example, and Abrams went and did it.
When Chewy and Han are planting the explosives, I had the thought, "yeah, camera is constantly moving. It is noticeable." Definitely has his fingerprints on it. Feels like his Trek films set in the Star Wars universe.
I stand corrected here. (although, I don't think that shot made it into the actual film, did it?) BB8 is an great character and refresh to the astromech droid.
I feel the same way after seeing the whole thing. I'm even surprised that Williams didn't have a memorable score.
I'm holding out hope for Rogue One.
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Ryan Farnes
Well-known member
An excellent read with many good insights. I particularly like his tone, accommodating of those that enjoyed the film, while offering his reasons for not joining them completely. I ought to include more of that in my critical reaction.
That said, I imagine I will find more and more articles like the above or lists like this that articulate why my gut rejected this movie.