Soundtrack Pro and RODE VideoMic.

TheJetBlack

TheJetBlack

Active member
:shocked: Hey. Shot my feature with a RODE VideoMic and messed with the sound in Soundtrack Pro (not much). Here's the result:


Friends think it's good enough. I don't. I want people who know their stuff and industry folks to give feedback. If new a new mic is needed, please budget it to less than 1k? And if there are other equipment I need for good sound, let me know as I am a little clueless on professional sound (other than knowing that no wind is good and a dependable boom op is needed)

Thanks.
 
Alright, here's my take:

I watched (listened) to this from a viewer's perspective, not a sound guys perspective. I did not notice any dialog I couldn't understand. That's paramount before anything and you did that right. There were some outside scenes where a shotgun with more directivity would have helped cut down on the ambient sounds and noise. There were some inside shots which had quite a bit of room ringiness which, while an alternative mic selection may have helped, a bigger bang for the buck would have been to treat the space with blankets.

Now, I'm a location sound guy with bags 'o' gear and many thousands of dollars invested, and I can go thru each shot and tell you how I would have done it. And another sound guy could do the same thing, and while we both may have a few common approaches, you'll also find a lot of differences. From my experience, it's more about becoming intimate with the capabilities of my gear, knowing my microphones behavior (which can only be done by spending hours practicing and listening), and only then can I make an informed decision on what to use that's in my bag, and what I may need to add to my bag to cover any shortfalls. There are general rules, shotguns outdoors, hypers or cardioids indoors, quiet preamps, quality recorder, proper wind protection and shock mounting. Beyond that, it's more about knowing your gear and getting the most out of it thru experience.

It think your clip demonstrates that acceptable audio (for low budget film) can be achieved if enough attention is given to sound.
 
It sounds bad , especially when the mic is more then 4 feet from the subject .
its not really what mic but where to place it .
buy zoom 4, small mixer , 2 -3 different mics to get it right
cost more then your camera ? - yes , life sucks
but then, not your audio :-)
 
gpforet said:
Alright, here's my take:

I watched (listened) to this from a viewer's perspective, not a sound guys perspective. I did not notice any dialog I couldn't understand. That's paramount before anything and you did that right. There were some outside scenes where a shotgun with more directivity would have helped cut down on the ambient sounds and noise. There were some inside shots which had quite a bit of room ringiness which, while an alternative mic selection may have helped, a bigger bang for the buck would have been to treat the space with blankets.

Now, I'm a location sound guy with bags 'o' gear and many thousands of dollars invested, and I can go thru each shot and tell you how I would have done it. And another sound guy could do the same thing, and while we both may have a few common approaches, you'll also find a lot of differences. From my experience, it's more about becoming intimate with the capabilities of my gear, knowing my microphones behavior (which can only be done by spending hours practicing and listening), and only then can I make an informed decision on what to use that's in my bag, and what I may need to add to my bag to cover any shortfalls. There are general rules, shotguns outdoors, hypers or cardioids indoors, quiet preamps, quality recorder, proper wind protection and shock mounting. Beyond that, it's more about knowing your gear and getting the most out of it thru experience.

It think your clip demonstrates that acceptable audio (for low budget film) can be achieved if enough attention is given to sound.
Click to expand...

That may be one of the best posts I've ever seen here!

My opinion (which really doesn't mean a lot) is that it's a little dead and some different mic placement would have helped a lot. It's also a hellofalot better than some of the things I've turned out.

I agree with your friends, good enough. Good for you for not thinking it is. Practice and improvement are the natural way of life. None of the real experts here were born that way.
 
I'd say next time try to get that mic closer. The Rode VideoMic isn't a bad mic, it's just not pro due to the lack of XLR. It's the same mic as an NTG-2, only with 1/8" connection. So of course, if you can afford it, get better mics. An NTG-3 is pretty sweet for the money, and on a pinch the NT3 is great for indoor on a budget, but I like/own the AT4053b for my indoor hypercardioid needs (and ov course I would have more expensive mics if I could afford them). But even without nicer mics, placement would improve your sound. If you must shoot really wide, maybe invest in a Rode Lav or Pinmic. Great sounding mics.

The other thing I notice is that your sound effects sound fake, and are stuck in the left channel. You know that you can copy a mono clip, and put the copy right next to the original and have them in both channels? At least in FCP you can. Look for some collection with a lot of punches and kicks to choose from, or maybe experiment making your own.

Good work overall. I'm sure every production you make will get better because you're asking questions.
 
The other thing I notice is that your sound effects sound fake, and are stuck in the left channel. You know that you can copy a mono clip, and put the copy right next to the original and have them in both channels? At least in FCP you can. Look for some collection with a lot of punches and kicks to choose from, or maybe experiment making your own.

Good work overall. I'm sure every production you make will get better because you're asking questions.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that, Chadfish. Thanks for that. I hope my productions do.

That may be one of the best posts I've ever seen here!
Click to expand...

I second that. Thank you, gpforet.

None of the real experts here were born that way.
Click to expand...

That's good to know.
 
Chadfish said:
The other thing I notice is that your sound effects sound fake, and are stuck in the left channel. You know that you can copy a mono clip, and put the copy right next to the original and have them in both channels? At least in FCP you can.
Click to expand...

You know that you can open the audio clip in the viewer and pan it to center instead. Copying the clip and pasting it in another track to "fill out both channels" is a bad idea. It can cause minute (and difficult to fix, at least in FCP) phase misalignment. Besides, it's a whole lot of work for something so simple to rectify. Use the pan controls and you'll be fine.
 
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The Rode VideoMic isn't a bad mic, it's just not pro due to the lack of XLR. It's the same mic as an NTG-2, only with 1/8" connection.
Click to expand...

While I would agree it's not a bad mic, it's not the same as the NTG-2. It's a much shorter mic with a wider pattern, more in the hyper range.


The other thing I notice is that your sound effects sound fake, and are stuck in the left channel. You know that you can copy a mono clip, and put the copy right next to the original and have them in both channels? At least in FCP you can.
Click to expand...

I will second C2V in recommending panning over cloning, a much better choice as a rule, and much "cleaner".


Look for some collection with a lot of punches and kicks to choose from, or maybe experiment making your own.
Click to expand...

Look at the sticky on post. Better FX is good but layering is also key.
 
in fcp, select the audio clip and control + period will center it.

in the age of youtube video where everyone is watching on a laptop with crappy speakers it seems like good audio is audio that can be heard and understood. but at the same time those watching videos on youtube don't see youtube as a place where you go to watch professionally produced videos either.

on a side note, it drives me crazy when some of my colleges put their stuff to show cleints on youtube.
 
OK, I watched it...

The problems. It may be the mic but I suspect it's the streaming, or poss the recorder, but there is some of that swimy low bit rate MP3 thing going on with the dialog.
However the big question is what are you aiming for?
If it's a fun thing for friends then it's pretty good, if it's aimed at impressing professionals it's got a long way to go.

Since you say you want professionals to critique, I'll give it a shot.

I do post so that is what I will focus on, others are going to be better with the production notes. This is a bit random in order but...

Too much music. A dead giveaway that there was no (professional) post sound work done or that it was done by amateurs.
Related is not nearly enough "sound". The "rule" is if you can see it you can hear it. If I see footsteps I want to hear them.
No backgrounds... You haven't built a world for your characters. Forget what happened to come in with the dialog, YOU need to create the world. There, as a rule, should never be a time when the "world" goes away.

Now this is a trailer so you can't build the same level of "world" you could in a short or a feature, and trailers often have more music... But still your way off in the balance.
Which brings up the mix. There isn't much of one. The music is almost all on the left? and FX don't live in the same place as the actors. If you have a hit it needs to sound like it happens where we see it.

As a picture editing note - may not be you- it's probably about twice as long as it should be. A trailer is an ad not a short film. Get to the point, make me curious, leave me in suspense. A romantic comedy would have somewhat different points ;~) but the first two are still the same.

Back to sound, sort of, the Music doesn't help. It's kind of slow and ponderous, but the shots are for an action movie???? You need something that either drives us along and keeps the trailer moving or possibly something that is really disturbing by it's inappropriateness. Like a nursery rhyme for a slasher trailer.

In a trailer EVERY thing has to count. If it doesn't say "you need to watch this movie", you need to loose it.

Dialog. Other than the swimming I mentioned it's OK, but some is not in sync? Closer micing would probably be good, but also it needs to be checked for sync because some are way off. Once all that is in order you could do some EQ and compression and probably get it sounding good enough to fly.

FX, yes they sound a bit like stuff that was included with STP. Most of those sounds have a pretty high "suck" level so I would look elsewhere. But you need to layer up sounds to make them sound rich. You will never find "the" hit that sounds perfect and polished. In an action film there are generally three to four sounds layered to make a single "hit". Again I would go to the sticky on post sound because there is a lot of info there on that kind of thing.

Also with FX you need to have a lot more. Right now there is the long sections where there is no sound (music isn't considered "sound" in the film industry) and then there is an SFX that stands out like a sore thumb. If you do the "see it, hear it" pass through the entire film the ones you have now would fit in better.

So, less music.
More appropriate music.
Create the world with the backgrounds.
Make sure everything makes a sound.
Layer up the SFX do make them tailored to your film.
Mix it all together.

Mix note. Dialog is mono and in the center. Foley that is connected to an actor is mono and centered with the dialog. SFX are placed where they are but cheated toward the center if they are small sounds and spread if they are BIG ones. If the world blows up make it huge, if it's a door close it's probably almost center (if it's on screen). Music is usually dominant or background score. You don't usually want it in the middle. Which ever is dominant (sound VS Music) the other should give way. BUT sound should never go away completely. There are rare times when you will have almost 100% music in a feature film but very rarely. The minute you go 100% music you loose the "world" your film takes place in. So IF that is the point, that the audience has left the "world" of the story and is someplace else, you can sometimes get away with it. Usually though it makes everyone feel like they just jumped into a music video.

The biggest step is knowing you need to take one, the rest is mostly time.
 
Noiz2,
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I don't know if it will help anybody else, but it sure turned on a few light bulbs for me.

Much appreciated. Thanks again.
 
Noiz2 said:
OK, I watched it...

The problems. It may be the mic but I suspect it's the streaming, or poss the recorder, but there is some of that swimy low bit rate MP3 thing going on with the dialog.
However the big question is what are you aiming for?
If it's a fun thing for friends then it's pretty good, if it's aimed at impressing professionals it's got a long way to go.

Since you say you want professionals to critique, I'll give it a shot.

I do post so that is what I will focus on, others are going to be better with the production notes. This is a bit random in order but...

Too much music. A dead giveaway that there was no (professional) post sound work done or that it was done by amateurs.
Related is not nearly enough "sound". The "rule" is if you can see it you can hear it. If I see footsteps I want to hear them.
No backgrounds... You haven't built a world for your characters. Forget what happened to come in with the dialog, YOU need to create the world. There, as a rule, should never be a time when the "world" goes away.

Now this is a trailer so you can't build the same level of "world" you could in a short or a feature, and trailers often have more music... But still your way off in the balance.
Which brings up the mix. There isn't much of one. The music is almost all on the left? and FX don't live in the same place as the actors. If you have a hit it needs to sound like it happens where we see it.

As a picture editing note - may not be you- it's probably about twice as long as it should be. A trailer is an ad not a short film. Get to the point, make me curious, leave me in suspense. A romantic comedy would have somewhat different points ;~) but the first two are still the same.

Back to sound, sort of, the Music doesn't help. It's kind of slow and ponderous, but the shots are for an action movie???? You need something that either drives us along and keeps the trailer moving or possibly something that is really disturbing by it's inappropriateness. Like a nursery rhyme for a slasher trailer.

In a trailer EVERY thing has to count. If it doesn't say "you need to watch this movie", you need to loose it.

Dialog. Other than the swimming I mentioned it's OK, but some is not in sync? Closer micing would probably be good, but also it needs to be checked for sync because some are way off. Once all that is in order you could do some EQ and compression and probably get it sounding good enough to fly.

FX, yes they sound a bit like stuff that was included with STP. Most of those sounds have a pretty high "suck" level so I would look elsewhere. But you need to layer up sounds to make them sound rich. You will never find "the" hit that sounds perfect and polished. In an action film there are generally three to four sounds layered to make a single "hit". Again I would go to the sticky on post sound because there is a lot of info there on that kind of thing.

Also with FX you need to have a lot more. Right now there is the long sections where there is no sound (music isn't considered "sound" in the film industry) and then there is an SFX that stands out like a sore thumb. If you do the "see it, hear it" pass through the entire film the ones you have now would fit in better.

So, less music.
More appropriate music.
Create the world with the backgrounds.
Make sure everything makes a sound.
Layer up the SFX do make them tailored to your film.
Mix it all together.

Mix note. Dialog is mono and in the center. Foley that is connected to an actor is mono and centered with the dialog. SFX are placed where they are but cheated toward the center if they are small sounds and spread if they are BIG ones. If the world blows up make it huge, if it's a door close it's probably almost center (if it's on screen). Music is usually dominant or background score. You don't usually want it in the middle. Which ever is dominant (sound VS Music) the other should give way. BUT sound should never go away completely. There are rare times when you will have almost 100% music in a feature film but very rarely. The minute you go 100% music you loose the "world" your film takes place in. So IF that is the point, that the audience has left the "world" of the story and is someplace else, you can sometimes get away with it. Usually though it makes everyone feel like they just jumped into a music video.

The biggest step is knowing you need to take one, the rest is mostly time.
Click to expand...

This helped out tremendously. Thank you, Noiz2.
 
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