Sound Recording
- Thread starter pekar1876
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kenackr
Well-known member
If your doc is a commercial venture, one mic (and a shotgun at that) will not be up to the task from a quality standpoint and you should probably hire a pro sound guy. On the other hand, if it's just a trial run or for fun or learning, then have at it as follows:
If you are using the music as a background bed, you'll have to try several approaches. First open the top to expose the strings & soundboard. Place your mic on the stand and aim it at the piano strings from above. You'll have to move the mic around to find a sweet spot. Since you only have one mic, it should be aimed more or less to the center of the strings, again you'll have to play with it a little. Hopefully, somewhere in the signal path there will be a vu meter or led display to allow you to control level.
Please note that as you are using a shotgun mic that you won't get a great balance from all strings. Better to use a cardiod polar pattern in this instance.
If you are only using one mic, a mixer will be of limited value other than to provide EQ and possibly easier level handling. The HVX is fully capable of handling the Rode as a direct input. If quality is of concern, re read the first sentence above.
Have fun
If you are using the music as a background bed, you'll have to try several approaches. First open the top to expose the strings & soundboard. Place your mic on the stand and aim it at the piano strings from above. You'll have to move the mic around to find a sweet spot. Since you only have one mic, it should be aimed more or less to the center of the strings, again you'll have to play with it a little. Hopefully, somewhere in the signal path there will be a vu meter or led display to allow you to control level.
Please note that as you are using a shotgun mic that you won't get a great balance from all strings. Better to use a cardiod polar pattern in this instance.
If you are only using one mic, a mixer will be of limited value other than to provide EQ and possibly easier level handling. The HVX is fully capable of handling the Rode as a direct input. If quality is of concern, re read the first sentence above.
Have fun
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Thanks for the advice. What would your pro set up be?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I notice there was an assumption that your Rode is a shotgun, it could be the stereo XY mic they make. I would probably use a cardioid pair through a MixPre or other good Mic. pre/ mixer into a Flash recorder at 48/24. You didn't say if you were filming at the same time or if you were using the camera just to record audio. I would shy away from using the camera to record because HD cameras compress the audio they record and you can get some strange artifacting.
ullanta
Veteran
What kind of Rode? What kind of piano (Grand or upright)?
As said, ideally you want a stereo mic setup for piano recording.
Especially if it's a grand piano, and you want a "natural" or classical sound, you want the mic to be pretty far from the piano. The more directional the mic, the farther you want it to be to capture the sound of the whole instrument. As a rule of thumb, for a grand piano, the mic(s) should be at least as far away from the piano as the length of the piano; the mic should approximately bisect the angle of the open lid and soundboard; and should be aimed at the soundboard.
I think some sort of external preamp would likely benefit you; a piano has great dynamic range and you may need to boost some of what you record in post; this will really emphasize the lower-quality preamps of the camera.
A pro setup? Depends a lot on the style of music, the performer, the instrument, and the room. Piano is one of the most difficult instruments to mic, and the most flexible. Pop-ish recordings often place mics right over the strings and/or hammers; classical recordings want the sound of the room (if the room sounds good); Jazz recordings can go either way (or both); and all sorts of sound experimentation is done with piano sounds. Sometimes the sounds a performer makes (unintentional "singing", breathing) will partially determine mic placement, etc. As a pretty simple but reliable setup, in a nice hall I often start with a spaced pair of omnis, 3-6 feet apart, placed as I've described above or a little closer. If the room sound is NOT desirable, something similar with cardioids....
As said, ideally you want a stereo mic setup for piano recording.
Especially if it's a grand piano, and you want a "natural" or classical sound, you want the mic to be pretty far from the piano. The more directional the mic, the farther you want it to be to capture the sound of the whole instrument. As a rule of thumb, for a grand piano, the mic(s) should be at least as far away from the piano as the length of the piano; the mic should approximately bisect the angle of the open lid and soundboard; and should be aimed at the soundboard.
I think some sort of external preamp would likely benefit you; a piano has great dynamic range and you may need to boost some of what you record in post; this will really emphasize the lower-quality preamps of the camera.
A pro setup? Depends a lot on the style of music, the performer, the instrument, and the room. Piano is one of the most difficult instruments to mic, and the most flexible. Pop-ish recordings often place mics right over the strings and/or hammers; classical recordings want the sound of the room (if the room sounds good); Jazz recordings can go either way (or both); and all sorts of sound experimentation is done with piano sounds. Sometimes the sounds a performer makes (unintentional "singing", breathing) will partially determine mic placement, etc. As a pretty simple but reliable setup, in a nice hall I often start with a spaced pair of omnis, 3-6 feet apart, placed as I've described above or a little closer. If the room sound is NOT desirable, something similar with cardioids....
ullanta
Veteran
Also, if you can let us know... how important is the piano music to the doc as a whole? If this were a doc about a pianist, you'd definitely want to find a pro sound person familiar with the musical style. If it's a brief scene that just fleshes out some character a bit, then maybe you could get by with a quick'n'dirty approach...
ullanta
Veteran
I'd agree with the use of a better recording device than the camera if looking for decent quality as discussed above... The HVX doesn't compress audio, but it is much noisier than an external recorder will be, which will be noticeable in very quiet piano passages, especially if the levels are boosted in post.
We're going to be recording jazz piano pieces in a home studio. It's going to be used as background music for the film around twenty minutes in total.
So it sounds like a good set up would be two cardioid mics - (any recommendations?) over the strings and hammers.
Then put through a pre mix, and then recorded onto a flash recorder (again any recommendations?)
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Good catch, sorry about that. I was under the impression that all the HD formats compressed the audio. Glad I was wrong. Someone should make trading cards with all the various formats and specs ;~).
Matt Grunau
Adobe Demigod
Hi guys, I had a smiliar question, and was wondering if something like this would suffice:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
I have 2 of those and hoped they would, if placed properly, do the job.
Thanks.
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
I have 2 of those and hoped they would, if placed properly, do the job.
Thanks.
John Willett
Veteran
I record piano a lot (mainly classical) and my standard set-up is a pair of omnis about 20cm apart and 2 - 3 metres from the piano.
An omni has a good octave in the bottom end extra, that a directional mic. does not have.
If you don't need the bottom octave, then cardioids would be fine, and going closer can work quite well for Jazz.
But I would experiment with position to make sure you get the result you want.
An omni has a good octave in the bottom end extra, that a directional mic. does not have.
If you don't need the bottom octave, then cardioids would be fine, and going closer can work quite well for Jazz.
But I would experiment with position to make sure you get the result you want.
on a similar note, what is the best way to avoid the 'thump' of the pedals? i have recorded piano once and had terrible trouble with them. i asked the pianist (a classically trained concert player) if he could hit them with a little less force, but all i managed to do was offend him
John Willett
Veteran
A lot depends on mic. placement.
I have never had pedal thump problems.
Sounds like you were mic'ing close and too near the pedals.
ullanta
Veteran
Sometimes it's the player, sometimes it's the piano, sometimes it's the combination of the above and a specific piece.
Sometimes placing some carpet under the bench, and extending under the pedals, will help a bit.
Generally, though, getting the mics farther from the piano is about the only way to deal with the pedal thump. I've seen a few situations where the pedal thump was just loud even out in the hall; not much to do about that. Or rather, if you have the opportunity, make sure the piano is in good shape and good tune BEFORE recording. Many halls have more than one piano; sometimes switching will make a big difference (though performers tend to have strong piano preferences).
If it's a piece that has a lot of prominent pedaling, sometimes you just have to accept that (even appreciate it).
Sometimes placing some carpet under the bench, and extending under the pedals, will help a bit.
Generally, though, getting the mics farther from the piano is about the only way to deal with the pedal thump. I've seen a few situations where the pedal thump was just loud even out in the hall; not much to do about that. Or rather, if you have the opportunity, make sure the piano is in good shape and good tune BEFORE recording. Many halls have more than one piano; sometimes switching will make a big difference (though performers tend to have strong piano preferences).
If it's a piece that has a lot of prominent pedaling, sometimes you just have to accept that (even appreciate it).
Heh heh heh
composeralex
Member
It depends on what you're going for. If a character is playing the piano, and the music is prominent, then you'll probably want to use a pair of mics in stereo XY, like Noiz2 suggested. A mono (single mic) recording really doesn't sound great, unless if maybe it's a pianist playing to the left off screen in the background. Getting the full stereo spread of the sound will make a world of difference, if you need it.
As for a recording interface, definitely don't use the camera. You have several options, depending on what you already have, and your budget. You can get an external, pro-audio sound card, such as the E-MU 0404 USB or the M-Audio FireWire series. Simply plug your microphones into the recording inputs, connect the interface to your computer via USB or FireWire, and click "record" in your audio program of choice (SONAR, Cubase, Logic, etc.). If you don't have one, you can use Audacity, an excellent, free program. Recording this way is good because it's done with just your computer and peripherals, it's an easy setup, and if you're using a laptop, it's portable. Then again, you probably know all about driver issues and other misc. issues that are bound to flair up when using a computer for anything important.
Alternatively, you could buy a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW). Good ones start at several hundred dollars. I bought the Yamaha AW1600 a few years ago for some location recording. These are most useful if you have many mic inputs, but still useful if you don't. You record all of your audio on there, then transfer it to your computer however it's supposed to. Some have a USB connection, others have FireWire, and some have built-in CD burners. The plus side is that they'll probably have plenty of mic inputs, have good recording quality, and be pretty portable. The down side is, each one has its own style of operating system, and you have to learn how to use it well. This, of course, takes time.
Either way is fine. I'm a computer guy, personally, so I'd go with the former, but a DAW is a very handy thing to have.
As for a recording interface, definitely don't use the camera. You have several options, depending on what you already have, and your budget. You can get an external, pro-audio sound card, such as the E-MU 0404 USB or the M-Audio FireWire series. Simply plug your microphones into the recording inputs, connect the interface to your computer via USB or FireWire, and click "record" in your audio program of choice (SONAR, Cubase, Logic, etc.). If you don't have one, you can use Audacity, an excellent, free program. Recording this way is good because it's done with just your computer and peripherals, it's an easy setup, and if you're using a laptop, it's portable. Then again, you probably know all about driver issues and other misc. issues that are bound to flair up when using a computer for anything important.
Alternatively, you could buy a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW). Good ones start at several hundred dollars. I bought the Yamaha AW1600 a few years ago for some location recording. These are most useful if you have many mic inputs, but still useful if you don't. You record all of your audio on there, then transfer it to your computer however it's supposed to. Some have a USB connection, others have FireWire, and some have built-in CD burners. The plus side is that they'll probably have plenty of mic inputs, have good recording quality, and be pretty portable. The down side is, each one has its own style of operating system, and you have to learn how to use it well. This, of course, takes time.
Either way is fine. I'm a computer guy, personally, so I'd go with the former, but a DAW is a very handy thing to have.
Thanks for the advice, the recording went great.
I hired two Schoeps CMC5 with Schoeps cardoid capsule and two mic stands, a Nagra Ares-BB flash recorder, which after you finished recording you just plug into your computer and it comes up as an external hard drive. Total cost was $50 for the day.
We placed the mics as you suggested 3-6 feet apart above both ends of the piano. At the end of the recording the pianist listened to what we had done and was so impressed with the recording he took down all the details of the equipment we used so he could use it in the future.