Sound for Video Recording Live Music

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percoplus

Active member
I started a post in the Canon camera forum
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=216025

I am having a hard time recording live music. I am solo with a video camera. It's a decent camera (Canon XHA1s) with XLR inputs and attenuators. Sometimes I can get a line feed from a soundboard into my camera, but a couple of shoots ago the recording sounded bad although it sounded okay in my headphones.

Problem #1 - I never know what to expect soundwise when I get to a gig. I don't know what to ask the soundman about my needs.

#2 - I don't understand the different signal db levels or what equipment I need to deal with them.

#3 - Sometimes the club is so loud that I can't hear discrepancies in my own sound. I get to my studio and cringe when I hear the distortion.

#4 - I have no good way to monitor my sound during the gig, especially if I am away from the soundboard.

I got a portable recorder MicroTrack II so I can set up at the sound board to free me up to wander around the venue. No luck so far - I am not there to monitor the sound. I got a line feed last week that the Micro couldn't handle. Probably so hot that it shut it down - even though I used the balanced 1/4" inputs.

Please, i need some tips from the pros. A good picture is worthless if the sound sucks.
 
Unless you can get the audio feed under your control, you will probably have never ending problems. There have been many threads on the Audio Board dealing with this exact problem, some within a couple of weeks. Search or scroll.

You really have two choices:
1. Record your own sound.
2. Get the feed before the club mix and mix yourself.

You will need more than yourself for either option.

Sorry to be the grim reaper.

Grant
 
You need to reliably have the sound be monitored. As with above, that either requires trusting the house sound operators or getting your own person. There's a reason recording concerts costs what it does; there's a lot to account for.
 
Having been on both sides I can tell you that you DON'T want the board feed 99% of the time. It's not because the mixer is an idiot, it's because he's mixing for the house. So if the house is boomy and has some feedback nodes in key Feq. ranges, he/she is going to notch those down. In the room it will sound fine because the room is boosting those freq's but your feed is going to sound like crap because the room isn't helping you out. Also house systems often have a fair amount of hum and buzz. If your doing rock concerts that's going to get blown away by the levels and ballanced out by the live sound off the stage. Your feed however won't have any of the live sound and the hums and buzzes are going to be in your face.

So you either need to set up a stereo pair and do your own sound or you need to get mic splitters and get the feeds before they get to the board AND set up a stereo pair (can't get the live sound with out some mics in the house). If you don't have an excellent relationship with the house sound person AND know what you are doing he/she will not let you anywhere near the feeds from the stage. Their responsibility is to the live sound and they would be idiots to let someone who doesn't know what they are doing jeopardize that.

So, since you are a one man band it looks like getting a decent stereo pair is your only real option. If you do you should also look at getting something like a MixPre, or some other mic pre with really good limiters. If you doing concerts, especially loud ones, limiters are your friends.
 
Noiz2 said:
Having been on both sides I can tell you that you DON'T want the board feed 99% of the time. It's not because the mixer is an idiot, it's because he's mixing for the house. So if the house is boomy and has some feedback nodes in key Feq. ranges, he/she is going to notch those down. In the room it will sound fine because the room is boosting those freq's but your feed is going to sound like crap because the room isn't helping you out. Also house systems often have a fair amount of hum and buzz. If your doing rock concerts that's going to get blown away by the levels and ballanced out by the live sound off the stage. Your feed however won't have any of the live sound and the hums and buzzes are going to be in your face.

So you either need to set up a stereo pair and do your own sound or you need to get mic splitters and get the feeds before they get to the board AND set up a stereo pair (can't get the live sound with out some mics in the house). If you don't have an excellent relationship with the house sound person AND know what you are doing he/she will not let you anywhere near the feeds from the stage. Their responsibility is to the live sound and they would be idiots to let someone who doesn't know what they are doing jeopardize that.

So, since you are a one man band it looks like getting a decent stereo pair is your only real option. If you do you should also look at getting something like a MixPre, or some other mic pre with really good limiters. If you doing concerts, especially loud ones, limiters are your friends.
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What he said, but with a 4 channel recorder you can get a board mix and stereo (hippy mix). Sometimes I'll ask if I can get a feed of just vocals from the board mix and blend that with the stereo mix in post.
 
Hey, I appreciate all the good input. And thanks for confirming that there are no easy fixes. I usually am a one-man show so I have to make do. If the venue is small enough I sometimes set up two condenser mics at front stage with fantom power from my camera or a separate recorder. Is that what you mean by a "stereo pair"?

As for mic splitters and mixing my own sound on location, forget it. It's enough hassle just to get a line feed from the house. That sound tech's only mission is to make the house sound good. I once did a gig where the band recorded their own performance for the video while a separate sound guy took care of the house mix. There were so many wires everywhere that I didn't want to go near the sound crew or the stage.

A big part of my problem is monitoring the incoming sound no matter where or how it comes. My little portable recorder does not have a strong enough headphone amp and neither does my camcorder. It may sound good at the gig, but only because i don't hear the distortion. I think a good mixer with a strong headphone preamp would help a great deal.

But then it would have to be portable. I have a modest wireless setup that I use for weddings, but I don't think I could trust it in a live music venue.

I like the idea of a "hippy mix"
 
I do "Matrix" recording. That's a board feed and a stereo mic. Like kgimedia said, you need at least a 4-track field recorder to do that, but for music you need some flexibility. The board feed usually favors the vocals because the musician's have their amps. A well placed stereo mic will capture the instruments mostly if you put it close to the stage, between the mains. Also you get some audience noise too which adds a nice vibe. You can also pull back so your mic picks up the mains and hears what the audience does. Then you have the board feed to add clarity to the mix.

A DR-680 will give you 6 mic inputs and 2 s/pdif to record! Or an edirol r-44 is a great little 4-track. The dr-680 is cheaper though, and is a very new/hot item being discussed for it's quality mic pres.
 
Right now, for a regular gig, I'm taking a mono feed from the house desk plus a mono "ambience" mic straight into the camera. In this particular pub, the desk's mono out is separately attenuated so I can get a usable level into my camera (DVX100A). Then I give the whole thing a little stereo "spread" in the final mix.

Hey, it's not exactly "hi fi", but it does the job:happy:
 
percoplus said:
Hey, I appreciate all the good input. And thanks for confirming that there are no easy fixes. I usually am a one-man show so I have to make do. ..."
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No you don't have to make do, you have to take control of the situation and pair up with someone who will handle sound while you take care of picture. What makes you think you just have to live with whatever situation is handed to you? Hire or partner with someone.
 
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percoplus said:
What is SPDIF for? My MT II has an input
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s/pdif is a digital signal. It's really clean and it's great if you have a device that sends out a S/pdif signal. I had a guitar modeling desktop amp that sent out a s/pdif, and it was great when recording into a sound card that took s/pdif, and 4 analog inputs. I didn't have to use up my analog ins when tracking with a few other musicians.
 
You're right, Steve. Maybe I can get my wife to throw on the headphones while i shoot. I don't have to pay her as much! Actually, for an upcoming shoot I may have a friend of the band help out in that regard.

Solo or not, I still need to be equipped and knowledgeable to be able to handle most any situation. I am convinced I need at least a 4-track mixer. From there I can send a feed to the MicroTrack and a separate one to my camera inputs.
 
Though a mixer is great, it is not necessary as long as you can get XLR cables into your recorders. I have recorded shows with my boss' Edirol R4 Pro with no mixer, and got great results. But even the R-44, a great 4 track at less than half the price, would do the job nicely. OTOH, if you had 2 cameras with XLR inputs, you could do 4 tracks with no mixer or recorder. With live, amplified music you are not going to hear any noise the preamps have unless you just plain have no idea how to set a level.
 
s/pdif

s/pdif

Chadfish said:
s/pdif is a digital signal. It's really clean and it's great if you have a device that sends out a S/pdif signal. I had a guitar modeling desktop amp that sent out a s/pdif, and it was great when recording into a sound card that took s/pdif, and 4 analog inputs. I didn't have to use up my analog ins when tracking with a few other musicians.
Click to expand...

Just curious - Do PA soundboards have s/pdif outputs? I know keyboards do.
 
That probably depends on the soundboard. My MOTU Traveler has s/pdif. I don't think my little Behringer Xenyx 1832FX mixer does.
 
Alessis FW, USB mixers have S/Pdif out. That doesn't really help you much though, your still getting the board feed.
 
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