CAMCORDERS: Sony Z200 Slow-Motion Demo

CharlesPapert said:
But that said--would love a couple of clips to play with, especially same scene shot with S-CInetone and SLOG-3 that have some meaty contrast to play with at either end of the exposure curve.
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Hi Charles, it sounds like you probably have your hands full as "On the Boulevard" comes to a head (I'm enjoying your posts on the other thread), but I finally had time to upload a half-dozen S-LOG3 clips and companion S-Cinetone versions of the same shots. Nothing fancy, and no faces, but something to play with anyway. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you a download link.

BTW, just to be clear, in no way do I consider the S-Cinetone clips to be "finished". Despite Sony's marketing hype that S-Cinetone is supposed to be a WYSIWYG profile, it certainly is not. But I do find it is usually a better starting point for grading that S-LOG3. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts whenever yu have time to play with them.
 
WYSIWYG - A tautology

Sorry to drift (!)

I dont feel that WYSIWYG is really a thing (or can be).. or it is a thing but the trade offs are defined by basic lighting physics.

1) screens are dull -(lacking in NITs) a shot of a sun on the screen will (luckily) not burn your retinas.

So WYSIWYG - a window on the world is not possible.

Ansel Adams, Turner, The closing sequence of SeVern. Artists have done interpretation and trickery to deliver a concept of 'bright' using thier flawed viewing medium (photo paper, canvas, silver screen) for centuries.

The trickery.. is usually manipulation in post of some nature.

The only way to match a scene DR to the camera screen DR is to have exeptional control over the scene DR. This will happen very rarely in a situation that a 'handycam' would be 'in play'

-a studio lighting set built around the camera.. 'a shiney floor show' or maybe 'newsroom'
-A natural scene augmented with a few 10k lights

The only time a scene will be appropriate for WYSIWYG with a handy cam is..
-a few minutes of golden hour
-a small head and shoulders interview modified with an affordable light like an Aperture 300.*

So what is a WYSIWYG codec?

How wold a designer approach this. Basically they are making trade offs between recording wide DR and delivering flat mush.= to the viewer.

The wider DR you record.. the flatter and mushier the final image.

The more 'pop' and satruration an image recorded.. the more easily clipping occurs.

Its a circular battle and sony have been playing the fiddle for years.. like poppy skin tones.. with a flat mush compressed sky.

Its not a bad compromise.

To expect a codec to deliver an broadcast ready inamge away from studios, lights and lighting trucks is I think not going to happen.

Which means you are going in post.. so may as well just shoot log and wang on a LUT or CST unless you are 'going live'.

--

*it is interesting that news folk like 'cranky cameraman' are master 'skaters' of using a comination of 'knee' and whatever light panels and ezy ups they can surround thier anchor to deliver from thier van a shot from a windy insecure location live to our sofas.
 

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morgan_moore said:
WYSIWYG - A tautology

Sorry to drift (!)

I dont feel that WYSIWYG is really a thing (or can be).. or it is a thing but the trade offs are defined by basic lighting physics.
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First of all, let's get straight on the terminology. "Codec" has virtually nothing to do with the look of a camera or whether or not it can produce a nice WYSWIYG image onboard -- a look that could be used as a final image with no grading. What I'm talking about (and striving to achieve with the Z200 and every other camera I own) is as Scene File or Picture Profile or even a on-board LUT that is good enough to go straight to air. That is a worthy goal and it is not impossible to achieve with most cameras.

Do you ever watch live TV sports, such as the Olympics? Do you ever happen to catch some TV News? Those productions are produced with WYSIWYG profiles. There's no editing or color grading. It's live. What about corporate events? News conferences? I-mag at a conventions and concerts? I-mag at houses of worship? These are "live" events that require a nice look straight out of the camera.

And even a lot of stuff that gets recorded and then edited in post will never see any serious color grading. Maybe just a tweak here or there to the white balance, exposure, or black levels. But that's not grading. That is polishing.

You're delusional if you think every production ends up going through a professional colorist's workstation. So, having a nice WYSIWYG scene file is mandatory for a lot of clients and workflows. Yes, any video shot with any camera can always be improved upon in post, but the goal is to have a scene file that makes that optional, not a necessity.

If you think the Z200 was designed with the needs of Hollywood filmmaker in mind, I suggest you go take a closer look at it. The Z200 is a $4000 ENG camcorder.
 
Live sport on a sunny day.(with a massive stadium shadow) . they make a choice.. pump in a flat profile .. it looks sh_it but at least we the viewer will understand where the ball is.

TV.. ? 'PTC' home of the Joker 800 and now an aperture or a couple of light panels.
The olympics.. 100 fill lights pumped into the stadium primary finals at magic hour.
News conterences? Presidential.. full rig. Of the cuff, 3 llight panels
Churches.. full disco rig + light panels.

Much ungraded natural light tends to look a bit grim apart from magic hour.

Nature? Magic hour.
Stock? Magic hour.
--

I think you are delusional if you think that you can make a single profile (for portariture*) that..
-has pop
-doesnt blow on a sunny day (or have super crushed shadows)
-doesnt enjoy a lite panel

A profile that enjoys a lite panel. (or lastolight) . for sure - top plan :)

Asked to go live Id look for three profiles..
Sunny Hell.
Lite panel
Flat as fk.



*sun on your back blue sky landsape - no problem. But that not a 'working operators' profile.
 
You are both right. Doug never said he is limited to ONE profile... I start by making a 5600k, 3200k and an "indoor" profile which is around 3500-4000k. These are mainly for a decent look but overall accurate colors and saturation. I can then take these and make more tonal profiles for extreme situations. In my case, high school sodium vapor lighting etc...
 
morgan_moore said:
Live sport on a sunny day.(with a massive stadium shadow) . they make a choice.. pump in a flat profile .. it looks sh_it but at least we the viewer will understand where the ball is.

TV.. ? 'PTC' home of the Joker 800 and now an aperture or a couple of light panels.
The olympics.. 100 fill lights pumped into the stadium primary finals at magic hour.
News conterences? Presidential.. full rig. Of the cuff, 3 llight panels
Churches.. full disco rig + light panels.

Much ungraded natural light tends to look a bit grim apart from magic hour.

Nature? Magic hour.
Stock? Magic hour.
--

I think you are delusional if you think that you can make a single profile (for portariture*) that..
-has pop
-doesnt blow on a sunny day (or have super crushed shadows)
-doesnt enjoy a lite panel

A profile that enjoys a lite panel. (or lastolight) . for sure - top plan :)

Asked to go live Id look for three profiles..
Sunny Hell.
Lite panel
Flat as fk.



*sun on your back blue sky landsape - no problem. But that not a 'working operators' profile.
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What the hell are you trying to say? I've given up trying to decipher your childish rambling messages. Are you drunk, high, or mentally challenged? If it isn't worth your time to write a coherent post that expresses your thoughts in a professional manner, then it certainly isn't worth my time to try and piece it together for you. Maybe this style of communication works with your clients, but I can't unravel it. Whatever you are trying to say is lost on me. And I doubt I would agree with it anyway.
 
Mate that is borderline insulting.

All of the situations I laid out are reasonable and understood (I would have thought)

Maybe I could add some explaination..

Are you watching Live sport on a sunny day.(with a massive stadium shadow) .

could read..

If you watch live sport broadcasts in situations where there is a large stadium shadow across the pitch you will see that the cameras are dialed to have a low contrast and wide dynamic range look. This look is unapplealing due to the flat nature and lack of saturation in the image, however it communicates the core need of a typical sports viewer to understand the 'play' as the ball never enters clipped black or blown white areas of the scene.

This is an example of appropriate use in live work of a flat profile.

Such a profile would be innapropriate for use with other subjects or lighting situations.

====

TV.. ? 'PTC' home of the Joker 800 and now an aperture or a couple of light panels.

Could read

Are you doing a television 'piece to camera'?

Over the years the reporters top half has often been lifted on the IRE scale by 'filling lighting them' with the use of a Joker 800, a daylight balanced HMI light.

Such a 'lift' has enabled an image that was 'bright and poppy' without needing postproduction or blowing any in scene highlights.

The cost of a 'Joker' and its power draw means that it has been a challenge to use on remote 'sets' and too expensive for smaller shows over the years.

In the last few years LED and battery technology has brought forward the possiblilty of battery fill lighting - initially 'Lite panels' and more recently Aperture fixtures. These fixtures have largely replaced the 'Joker'

Etc.
 
Sam, thank you for taking the time to elaborate. Based on your concerns, and your unfortunate choices for lighting equipment, all I can say is that you work in a very, very different world from me and my colleagues in the USA. I suggest that you continue your never-ending quest find that elusive camera that will tick all your boxes, and that hoefully you can afford it, once you do. Good luck.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
Do you ever watch live TV sports, such as the Olympics? Do you ever happen to catch some TV News? Those productions are produced with WYSIWYG profiles. There's no editing or color grading. It's live. What about corporate events? News conferences? I-mag at a conventions and concerts? I-mag at houses of worship? These are "live" events that require a nice look straight out of the camera.
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But of those, the legit broadcast work from trucks will have color shading which is essentially primary color correction. So it's not really "out of the camera" in those instances?
 
CharlesPapert said:
But of those, the legit broadcast work from trucks will have color shading which is essentially primary color correction. So it's not really "out of the camera" in those instances?
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That is somewhat true, but in my experience, after the cameras are painted before the event begins, adjustments from that point are mostly limited to exposure and black levels during the event. But the Z200 has no CCU capabilities, so it's not really in competition to replace OB cameras. Instead, think about the one-man-band shooting a high school football game, a church service, stage play, reporter standups, corporate video, etc.
 
morgan_moore said:
What ever way it is done the world is too variable to have one profile that matches every scene?
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Yes, that is why I have two WYSIWYG profiles that can cover most situations. And when they can't do the job due to a really unusual situation, then it's easy enough to call up a different Scene File that will require grading in post. When setup and used properly, Sony cameras can swing both ways: Grade in Camera or Grade in Post. Switching from one mode to the other literally takes 20 seconds for the camera to reboot.
 
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