Sony Venice 2 8.6K FF

ahalpert

ahalpert

Major Contributor
Nokishita has leaked the full press release for the Venice 2 which will be announced on Monday. Looks like it comes with an 8.6K FF sensor block which offers a modest increase in sensitivity and DR over the 6K (perhaps 1/3 stop or so in either spec), but with lower max framerates. However, the sensor block is removable and can be switched out for the original 6K sensor block. The body itself is 10% lighter than the original.

Venice 2 max framerates:
8.6K3:230FPSFull-Frame
8.2K17:960FPSFull-Frame
5.8K6:5 Anamorphic48FPSSuper 35
5.8K17:990FPSSuper 35


Full press release here: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/leak...-image-sensor/

Shipping Feb 2022, no word on price
 
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not bad.

any increase on DR puts on par with Alexa, but being 8K with a very usable SOOC look.


I like the swappable/detachable sensor block concept, and the fact that it is real.


While the 8K is welcome, the 10% lighter is neither here nor there. given all the work done on Avatar, wondering if the new bodies are geared to have modern features. as opposed to just increasing resolution and frame rates.


…can i buy a Venice 1 for $2 now? please?
 
Well, sadly not the Mini Venice a lot of us were hoping for, but it sounds like a really tidy update to the already excellent Venice.

Internal Raw (Finally!) and 4k Prores4444 (hopefully at variable frame rates).

EI changes actually being built into the recordings (like Alexa does) is a highly welcome addition too. And an internal scratch mic is a big added covenience.

Still have to pay extra for full-frame and anamorphic recording licences, but hopefully the lack of having to pay for the R7 recorder (and two sets of media, both SXS and AXS) now will cover some of that additional cost.

By my calculations, the weight should come in at approximately: 4.6kg for the body (compared to 5.1kg for the Venice 1 + R7 Recorder). the 44mm reduction in overall length (again, compared to the Venice 1 + R7) is a bit of a relief, as the normal Venice gets frustratingly long once you add the R7 (and generally the Wooden Camera power distro plate as well).

I threw together a quick side by side to show how the two versions compare size-wise:

wrArRna.jpg
 
Bob Loblaw said:
I don’t know. The original claims 15stops, and Sony also claims 15 stops with the FX6 & FX9, but CineD shows the FX6 & FX9 has a dynamic range nearly on par with the BMPCC6K.
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the venice has been tested against arri and red, the verdict is

1. Arri
2. Venice
3. Red

While the Red Monstro has a lot of DR, and the Gemini is not really all that different either, the Venice is that little bit better composed and has a more pleasant mojo picture profile by default. You can see the jump from the F55 to the Venice in ‘The Crown’ Season 3 to Season 4. They have the same cast, locations, gaffers and cinematographers and even lenses. just swapped out the camera, more or less. as well as some creative choices, but otherwise a great show to watch to see how Dynamic Range and the default bronze colour science makes things change. (and if you want to see how the Cooke lenses differ from the Zeiss High Soeeds, then watch Season 1,2 vs Season 3,4)


in any case, the Venice is the closest anyone has gotten to Arri DR. adding a half a stop on to what they already achieved and it being 8K is kind of a big deal. Unlike RED, Sony was able to keep colour drift in the shadows suppressed. Not that one always needs to dig into the shadows, or that it is all that terribly difficult to fix in post, but since it is kind of a given that people dislike colour drift, it is nice when the manufacturer takes care of that at the source.

The Venice 2 seems a sensible upgrade, rather than a leap. loving that. let’s hope for more sensibility and less reinventing the wheel or crippling or rushed to market hack jobs.


But going off of previous real world test comparisons, the Venice really only needs another 1/2 stop improvement to bring it into that same level of “film replacement” that Arri alone enjoys. Venice 1 and Gemini were close enough, but with Arri being more of a baseline, anything below it, is just not going to cut it. the seams will show at some point, as has been proven time and time again with every video camera in existence other than the Aleviii cameras. And even then, they are just shy of being sensitive enough for today’s users.

For me, the Venice 2 is looking like the camera of my dreams:
- high resolution
- 14 stops DR (i like more, but anything close to Alexa is a nice place)
- unibody design with internal high quality codecs and pro i/o
- internal ND
- upgrade path
- swappable mounts
- trendy default colour science (i may not always prefer the look of Venice, but i can’t complain if clients love it, who doesn’t love mojo? dvx, can i get a woot!)
 
I’ve personally compared the A7s3, F55, Komodo, Alexa, Gemini together, and i feel the DR groupings are such that the Gemini and the Arri are close, and the A7s3, Komodo, and F55 are close. When i see online test of the Gemini/Venice/Alexa i see that the Venice is really close to the Alexa, and the Gemini and Monstro just behind them.

So, Sony is giving the Fx6 the prosumer marketing number, and the Venice gets a slightly more honest number, but is not as conservative as Arri. Venice is probably a 14stop camera, while the Arri is a 14+. The Gemini is a 13+, the Komodo is 12+ or a 13 depending how you like your shadows. The A7s3 is a 12+. But when looking at Komodo raw next to A7s3 10bit compressed, the divid feels bigger, but once they go online, the differences feel neutralized. Gemini is a camera that sits right on the line between video/film alternative. Seriously beasty sensor. high frame rate, perfect size for cinema, highlight priority, and sensitive. but it takes a lot of skill to get the best out of it, when you could just grab a Venice or Arri and get right to work.
 
Teddy_Dem said:
Interesting to see that RAW (X-OCN) can now be recorded internally and doesn't require the AXS-R7.
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Sensible upgrade.

Going to temporarily call this camera the Sony Sensible. Just solid upgrades.

FF35/VV should be 8K. gives a better 4K down sample in s35 modes, offers high resolution to anamorphic for richer gradients on all that optical smear, and why the heck shoot Vista Vision if it isn’t stunningly detailed or richly full of depth and tone?


But i guess we’ll have to see. In Sony fashion, it may not wow, but might prove to be a sensible camera over time.
 
Grug said:
Well, sadly not the Mini Venice a lot of us were hoping for, but it sounds like a really tidy update to the already excellent Venice.
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A smaller lighter and more simple Venice would have been amazing. especially if it could be kept under $40K for a working kit.
 
FWIW, the high end pro market, unlike the consumer hybrid photo-video industry, is fully competitive. Open source mounting, no price fixing or feature crippling. 8K ought to be wanted by all the major streamers. Just in case.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
But can it shoot quality 4K full frame?
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probably - the press release says:

"the Venice 2 chassis allows internal recording of X-OCN and Apple 4K Pro Res 4444 and 422HQ without the AXS-R7 recorder"

so, I assume that means it will scale down to 4K for you in any of its capture area settings?
 
Grug said:
Well, sadly not the Mini Venice a lot of us were hoping for, but it sounds like a really tidy update to the already excellent Venice.

Internal Raw (Finally!) and 4k Prores4444 (hopefully at variable frame rates).

EI changes actually being built into the recordings (like Alexa does) is a highly welcome addition too. And an internal scratch mic is a big added covenience.

Still have to pay extra for full-frame and anamorphic recording licences, but hopefully the lack of having to pay for the R7 recorder (and two sets of media, both SXS and AXS) now will cover some of that additional cost.

By my calculations, the weight should come in at approximately: 4.6kg for the body (compared to 5.1kg for the Venice 1 + R7 Recorder). the 44mm reduction in overall length (again, compared to the Venice 1 + R7) is a bit of a relief, as the normal Venice gets frustratingly long once you add the R7 (and generally the Wooden Camera power distro plate as well).

I threw together a quick side by side to show how the two versions compare size-wise:

wrArRna.jpg
Click to expand...

Well…. XOCN isn’t RAW. But by most accounts, it’s an incredible codec that’s very flexible and is almost(if not) as good as RAW. The press release said the camera uses AXS cards internally. But it didn’t say if it has slots for SxS and AXS, both. That’s gonna hurt if the only cards it can use are the insanely priced AXS cards(not that SxS are cheap).
 
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Run&Gun said:
Well…. XOCN isn’t RAW. But by most accounts, it’s an incredible codec that’s very flexible and is almost(if not) as good as RAW. The press release said the camera uses AXS cards internally. But it didn’t say if it has slots for SxS and AXS, both. That’s gonna hurt if the only cards it can use are the insanely priced AXS cards(not that SxS are cheap).
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I have X-OCN on my F55 / R7 and it is definitely no different than RAW. That is the only codec I use with my F55. There's no way anyone could tell the difference without digging into the metadata or looking at overall file sizes.

As for AXS cards being expensive, they are actually cheaper per GB than SxS ProX cards.
 
So if you want to dual record and have cards to swap to, you'd be looking at four 1 TB memory cards, which is $15,000 (buying them in a three pack saves a big $3k otherwise it'd be $18k for four). Alexa Mini LF Codex cards are about half the price, and since you can't dual record on the Mini LF, that means half as many cards to buy. Also means you're totally screwed when that one cards goes bad, damaged, missing, accidentally formatted, etc. What's better than 8.6K? Dual record!
 
Media, lenses, EVF, batteries, etc. are all part of the real cost of a camera and must be taken into account. If someone can't afford premium gas, they shouldn't buy a premium car that requires it. I'm not defending the price of the cards, just putting it perspective. I guess it all depends on how you work and what your needs are.

Dual recordering? Don't need it.
Lose a card? Never happen.
Accidentally erase a card? Impossible.
 
That’s a pretty cool world you live in Doug where things can never go wrong but in my world you never know when Alec Baldwin will shoot the memory card out of the DIT’s hand and then you’re glad you’ve already got a backup card.

Obviously cost of media plays a role in choosing what camera to get. If the media cost makes the camera more expensive than say a Mini LF, and the LF has better image quality and brand recognition, then something like the cost of media could be a tipping point toward getting an LF instead.
 
How did we ever survive all these years shooting on film, where one slight easy to make mistake can ruin an entire roll of film?
 
Eric Coughlin said:
That’s a pretty cool world you live in Doug where things can never go wrong but in my world you never know when Alec Baldwin will shoot the memory card out of the DIT’s hand and then you’re glad you’ve already got a backup card..
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Well, I'm just saying I don't fear things that have infinitesemally small risk. The last time I shot on tape was in 2006. In the last 16 years I have never lost a card, never had a corrupted clip, never lost a single frame of video, never accidentally erased a card, never dual recorded in both slots, and never had any trouble whatsoever when using Sony SxS, AXS, and XDCAM optical discs. Rock solid 100% of the time.

I used to spend more on blank Betacam tape stock evey year than the total cost of all the memory cards I have ever bought in my life. And I only had to buy my memory cards once. I do own one 1TB AXS card that cost me $4500, and I'll admit that was hard to swallow at the time. But when amortized over several years, and considering how it has enabled me to shoot thousands of 120 fps 4K RAW 16-bit clips that wouldn't have been possible without my F55/R7, it has been a great investment.

Neither of the Venice cameras fits my needs so I won't be buying one, but the cost of media wouldn't be a factor if I was considering a purchase.
 
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