F3: Sony PMW-F3 price drop.

optitek said:
We are trying to get the OptiTron compatible with Canon cameras as well. But you are absolutely right.
F5 (F3 as well) with the OptiTron2 and the Canon ProLock Mark1-2-3 is the only combo with EFF (electronic follow focus)
For now:
http://optitek.org/products/optitron2/
check out the videos on the bottom of the page ;-)
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And to be clear, I definitely don't mean to malign the Optitron products - they look very cool, and I only hear good things. But the special features they offer aren't something that casual EF shooters can necessarily justify when other options give them an entire camera with basic EF electronic control for just $500 or $750 more.
 
Viddovation said:
And to be clear, I definitely don't mean to malign the Optitron products - they look very cool, and I only hear good things. But the special features they offer aren't something that casual EF shooters can necessarily justify when other options give them an entire camera with basic EF electronic control for just $500 or $750 more.
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Not a problem mate ;-)
None of the other options however offers proper FF operation. That's all.
Of course the value of said feature varies with the kind of work one does. For some (like wild life long lens rock solid stability, narrative - precise and repeatable 4K focusing)) it is a life saver. For others not so much. You decide. Choices are good....
 
optitek said:
Not a problem mate ;-)
None of the other options however offers proper FF operation. That's all.
Of course the value of said feature varies with the kind of work one does. For some (like wild life long lens rock solid stability, narrative - precise and repeatable 4K focusing)) it is a life saver. For others not so much. You decide. Choices are good....
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Absolutely. I just figure most of the people who require the FF function you offer will be on the F5/F55 at this point. But indeed, options are great. And speaking as someone developing camera interface software/hardware on his offtime, it's definitely no small endeavor, so certainly the prices are more than justified.
 
Viddovation said:
One thing I hate in the used F3 market is the confusion about the RGB/S-Log upgrade. The late production cameras include it by default, but the early ones don't, and plenty of people selling used F3 cameras without the RGB upgrade are sly in how they push "with S-Log firmware upgrade" - which just isn't the same. Creates awful confusion.
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Yeah, I've seen that a few times.

There also seems to be some confusion about what features the free and paid upgrade entail. Even I can't keep track of it at this point
 
Viddovation said:
So um, it's nice and all that the Sony PMW-F3 is now $4000... but look what I just bought for $3,577.77, shipped: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F23-Digital-Cinema-Camera-B4-mount-/191640278145?autorefresh=true&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ZxqhVmjAoZ9mA0GcFLDhNFWwTvQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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Man I think you got burned! I just bought an F-35 for under 50.00 bucks!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Son...860?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee3369194

I'm going to shoot a feature! lol
I couldn't resist, hahaha
 
morgan_moore said:
The F3.. an FS100 with ND unless you add a recorder.

With a 10bit onboard it just becomes a lump.. Id pick a BMC over it any time for image and hte C100 for cheap XLR ND

Slog1? .. no decent luts to bring it back to normalisation.

Ergonomics.. terrible.

Lump? what a huge lump - compare to a GH4! its 8times the size and half the spec (to most eyes)

FZ mount? no speedbooster (this matter at the price point)

I can see there is a place for the camera.. but where?

So you want to upgrade from your DSLR..

Corporate? need roll time ND/XLR? F3? nope get a C100 and save your back

Indy cinema? looking for 10bit prores? F3? nope get a BMC and save your back

Got more money? get an FS7

So its worth half of a (new) bmc4k or C100.

Four lock down F3 at £500 a pop - feeding an o7q might be a good way to record a live event in 10-422 I suppose.

S
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I agree that the F3 is quite big and bulky, and even though I have the body armour the fact that you "need" external recorder and monitor/viewfinder makes it quite heavy. But the camera really has little competition when it comes to the image. The colours, the original Slog and the beautiful rendering of details is in my mind better than most cameras, including the FS7.

Also for the specs-minded:
If you want S35, PL-mount, ND, XLR, 10 bit, ISO 800 native, 1080/60p, 13+ stops I cannot think of many cameras, especially that are close in price.
 
I like the detailing of the file that must be said (Im comparing to recorded prores to the FS7 internal codec) but really I could never get a handle on the colour.. yep made some cool 'scandi' drama looks but getting the full saturation corporate look that actually pays the bills.. I never got it nailed or saw anyone else nail it.

It also lacks pure resolution that you get with an FS7 or BMC.. or even GH4(!) - Im not a 4k nut but like some space to chop out the boom!

We put it against the BMC (proRes) for 'Nelson Nutmeg' and that BMC file was both way sharper and easier to colour. Biased? Yep the F3 was mine.. I wanted it to win!

To me the mass just tips to the wrong side of 'solo operator' - mainly 'cos that recorder and mon/evf probably need a Vlock.

S
 
My F3 setup (same for ex-1 and only slightly changed for custom FS7 - needs a phase change for Fs7aprox -7 )
I thought it gave great color .

Matrix - High Sat
Level 0 to +2 ? set to taste for shot
Phase 0
R-G + 64
R-B - 10
G-R + 5
G-B 0
B-R - 5
B-G - 21
Black level -2 to - 6 depends on the gamma
could be any gamma
Gamma level- -2 to-4 for STD 5
everything else 0 or off.

Lenny
 
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Len. Yep I'm sure in "custom" mode it looks ok - like the fs100 or ex1 (as I said in my first post) and 35mbs is very sweet for baked looks. It is when you try and take the Camera beyond the Fs100/ex1, and move to log+recorder , that it becomes unwieldy both on location and in post
 
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Harry Lime said:
Yeah, I've seen that a few times.

There also seems to be some confusion about what features the free and paid upgrade entail. Even I can't keep track of it at this point
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Ask if it has 444, that is key.

Viddovation said:
So um, it's nice and all that the Sony PMW-F3 is now $4000... but look what I just bought for $3,577.77, shipped: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-F23-Di...VmjAoZ9mA0GcFLDhNFWwTvQ=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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That is pricier than a second hand F3, and I can not see how it is better at all vs the newer F3.
 
morgan_moore said:
Yep I'm sure in "custom" mode it looks ok - like the fs100 or ex1 (as I said in my first post) and 35mbs is very sweet for baked looks. It is when you try and take the Camera beyond the Fs100/ex1, and move to log+recorder , that it becomes unwieldy both on location and in post
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A recorder/monitor just takes upmthe same space as where you'd use a monitor anyway (and you certainly can't use it without one on your shoulder), and the recorder makes it even better in post. So I can't agree with you on either point.
 
I loved my F3 but even with the quirks of the FS7 it's a way better camera. More functions, better IQ and it makes for a smaller/lighter package because I don't need anything else to use it.
 
Iron. You are anon so I have no clue if you actually work in this game. Only a loon would use an external recorder to capture client data without a quality power source - that pushes you to vlock and does bulk up the package.

To be fair my F3 was overly bulky using a shuttle and DP6 - today there are better integrated options 7q or ninja?

slog1 is a pain in post because there are no nice luts - slog3 is available to all editors simply - so post is more painful.

So those points are valid - maybe not on paper or on a forum but in the real world

Have you owned fs100 f3 fs7 shot BMC? I have.
 
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I'll make my thoughts once again..

Low budget corporate 8bit with XLR and ND? C100

Low budget 'movies' or greenscreen with 10bit and maybe 4k? BMC

Higher budget anything? FS7

Wandering around the fair with the family? Gh4

Low budget 1080 422 multicam static rig..? F3 X 4 and O7q. Wonderful.

S
 
Slog1 is very easy to grade with the ImpulZ LUTs. Most of the time I just slap the Vision3 50D LUT on and boost the mids a tiny bit and it looks good. Also Convergent design has made a LUT for monitoring Slog1. There is also pretty good LUTs for free that convert slog to cineon. So the post thing is really a non issue for me. I have no problem getting saturation but I usually prefer to not have the saturated look, the fine tonality of these sensors is what keeps them apart from say a GH4 or A7s.

As for the bulk I agree its bigger than I want, and its the biggest weakness of the camera. But for docu and quick jobs I have realised that the internal codec is very good and reliable so for things like that I just use the 502 monitor and an BP-U60 adaptor plate on top of the camera to power everything for about 4 hours.

The thing to realise is that the F3 is a bargain for its versatility. Yes it has competitors in specific scenarios but for a owner operator its such a great performer for a wide variety of stuff. If you bought a c100 you would not be able to shoot a music video because you almost always want 60p, if you bought a BMC you would have to rig it to death for shoulder-work and the lowlight is not great and no ND or XLR.

I think the FS7 is a great camera and for alot of stuff I would prefer it over the F3, but its also 3-4 times as expensive which for me is not worth it.
 
IronFilm said:
That is pricier than a second hand F3, and I can not see how it is better at all vs the newer F3.
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(Quote is in reference to a Sony F23 purchased for $3577.00 USD, last week)

It's exactly that logic and market opinion that made my purchase possible. And don't get me wrong, the F23 fills a different niche than the F3, however, here's the basic ways the F23 kicks the "newer" F3's butt:

- Global CCD shutter
- Combined 6.2MP sensor (3x 2.07MP sensors) for true RGB 4:4:4 (PMW F3 has a 2.5MP active sensor)


Essentially, it's capable of far sharper images with richer color than the F3 is.
 
Osslund said:
I loved my F3 but even with the quirks of the FS7 it's a way better camera. More functions, better IQ and it makes for a smaller/lighter package because I don't need anything else to use it.
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At of all cameras you can buy today the FS7 is my dream one to own one day :-)
(Excluding here the stupidly insanely priced ones which are lovely too, I'm looking at you Arrived and Phantom! And I'd count the latest few RED models in that too)

And I reckon within a few short years I will quite likely get an FS7 too, once the need for 4K becomes pressing enough.


morgan_moore said:
Iron. You are anon so I have no clue if you actually work in this game. Only a loon would use an external recorder to capture client data without a quality power source - that pushes you to vlock and does bulk up the package.

To be fair my F3 was overly bulky using a shuttle and DP6 - today there are better integrated options 7q or ninja?
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Already have a V lock battery on the back of the shoulder rig, but going to a slimmer configuration wouldn't worry me. A shuttle plus DP6 plus V mount feels like a more awkwardly worrisome configuration than simply one combo recorder/monitor running of a pair of its standard batteries.

And I'm on the fence between Blackmagic Design Video Assist or Video Devices PIX-E5, they're both FHD screens with recording over SDI. I'll probably go with the cheaper one of the two, but I can wait for the user reviews for each to come out before making a firm decision.


morgan_moore said:
Have you owned fs100 f3 fs7 shot BMC? I have.
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Yeah I've shot with lots of various lower end cameras such as those. Including but not limited to: RED ONE MX, FS700, BMCC, BMPCC, FS7, C300, C100, etc

Out of these, I think none of them matches the unique mix of features that the Sony F3 has (except FS7/FS700, but at a much higher price point). And certainly nothing else can match it at the F3's current price ( & absolutely not if you put in the effort to hunt down a deal like I did, and got one F3 for US$1.2K).

Thus thought it is worth highlighting it with a few posts and others here might be also interested in this unique mix of price/features/performance that the F3 delivers. Maybe the F3 can get another little mini revival of interest in 2015 :-)
 
Viddovation said:
(Quote is in reference to a Sony F23 purchased for $3577.00 USD, last week)

It's exactly that logic and market opinion that made my purchase possible. And don't get me wrong, the F23 fills a different niche than the F3, however, here's the basic ways the F23 kicks the "newer" F3's butt:

- Global CCD shutter
- Combined 6.2MP sensor (3x 2.07MP sensors) for true RGB 4:4:4 (PMW F3 has a 2.5MP active sensor)


Essentially, it's capable of far sharper images with richer color than the F3 is.
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Ah yes, global CCD is a compelling reason why a person could prefer it for their niche usage over an F3. However I assume it is also much much worse in low light? For me personally, giving up that (AND the drastically smaller sensor) is just too much to ask to give up for those gains in return :-/ (what are you planning on using your F23 for?)

Still, I'd be very curious to see head to head comparisons between the two to see how much better on screen this "true RGB 444" delivers (as F3 boasts of 444 too). Got any good links to comparisons to share? :-)
 
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