F3: Sony PMW-F3 price drop.

I

IronFilm

Veteran
The current price for a new F3 is only US$3,995 now, a huge reduction from its original price:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/848144-REG/Sony_PMW_F3L_RGB_PMW_F3L_Super_35mm_Full_HD.html
I can tell it dropped from US$4,995 sometime in the last 48hrs based on Google's cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r_35mm_Full_HD.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz
I was hoping Archive.org could give me insight into the price history over the past year. But sadly the most recent copy it shares at the moment is from October 2014 when it was $14,995:
https://web.archive.org/web/2014100...y_PMW_F3L_RGB_PMW_F3L_Super_35mm_Full_HD.html
Adorama sadly doesn't sell it currently, just a kit for $13,800:
http://www.adorama.com/SOPMWF3G444.html
But it does have three in used condition (V condition $2,100, E- condition $2,400, E condition $2,575):
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=recommend&sku=US_VDCSOPMWF3
And on eBay I can see sold listings for US$2K. I believe if people look around at their local private sales they'll find it even cheaper, I picked up one myself three weeks ago for US$1.2K via that.

Incredible price drop from 2011 when the Sony PMW-F3 first came out and it was nearly $20,000! ($16K for the body plus initially US$3,800 for the firmware upgrade)

It has had a far faster price drop than similar cameras of that era (give or take a year) which were priced similar (or even cheaper than the F3 was), such as: Canon C300, RED Scarlet, RED One, Sony FS700, BMCC. They've all seen big price drops, falling half in price, or even more. But none have seen the price fall to a tenth of the original cost! (or even less!)


I wonder why. I've got a few theories, it is was a rather popular enough camera in its niche (TV / documentaries / etc). Thus lots of F3 cameras were sold, which is causing mismatch in supply vs demand. As there is low demand because it never caught on amongst amateur/indie filmmakers (because they too quickly got distracted by the next shiny item, such as RED or BMD), who'd be the people who could soak up the supply of F3 cameras on the second hand market. As professional TV crews wouldn't be buying up F3 cameras in large numbers, they'd instead be moving on to an F5/F55.

So why are there not more indies picking up these cheap F3 bodies? I'd say there are a few reasons: its bulk, it is "only 1080", no raw, PL mount (too pricey for many indies), and SxS cards are pricey. (last two reasons are non issues, as under that PL mount you've got the FZ mount, and there are dirt cheap adapters for SxS to use standard SD cards. But many people won't realise this initially, and just be put off from getting an F3)


Makes you wonder what camera now which are priced way outside our reach will then be very affordable by 2019?


Alexa Mini? Doubt it, it will still hold onto its popularity and prestige for a long time.
Sony F5? Well... is the one directly after the F3, kinda makes it the obvious candidate to keep an eye on. The F5 after all is already feeling pricing pressure from Sony's own cheaper FS7, URSA Mini and other cameras will keep up the pressure.
KineFinity KineMAX 6K? Doubt it will sell enough to create a future large supply vs demand in balance.
Sony FS7? Perhaps this is the one to watch for 2019 deals, but it is already starting from a very affordable point. So it surely will fall to a similar price point by 2019 I guess, but it certainly won't fall to being a tenth of its original price.
AJA Cion? Eh, I suppose it might... but I doubt I'd pick it over my own F3!


Other candidates? Thoughts?
 
Haha, yeah..... to set up an ideal situation for a massive price drop you need a fairly large-ish quantity of the cameras to be purchased, and then for there to be a much lower demand for them in 2019. Thus a massive oversupply relative to the demand, and a very very low bargain price to be found.
 
Guys - note B&H lists it as "Limited Quantity At This Price"... which means, they're clearing shelf inventory. They may (or may not) have cut a deal with Sony USA to eat part of the "loss", but you should expect this means the PMW-F3 is no longer in production, and existing new inventory is being liquidated.

What does this mean? In the short term, you may see a drop in used prices while these new units are available at this price mark, but just like when RED sold off the last MX units, expect prices to go back up slightly when these are gone, then resume the downward trend as more 4k cameras replace, and so forth.
 
Interesting point Viddovation, I think your logic sounds right. Secondhand pricing will keep on going down as new stock inventory is cleared, then it will creep back up as people who *must* have *specifically* an F3 will push up the prices when people have to resort to only the secondhand market and not buying new. Then it will continue the downwards trend once again, as new cameras keep on being pumped out at every lower prices.
 
The F3.. an FS100 with ND unless you add a recorder.

With a 10bit onboard it just becomes a lump.. Id pick a BMC over it any time for image and hte C100 for cheap XLR ND

Slog1? .. no decent luts to bring it back to normalisation.

Ergonomics.. terrible.

Lump? what a huge lump - compare to a GH4! its 8times the size and half the spec (to most eyes)

FZ mount? no speedbooster (this matter at the price point)

I can see there is a place for the camera.. but where?

So you want to upgrade from your DSLR..

Corporate? need roll time ND/XLR? F3? nope get a C100 and save your back

Indy cinema? looking for 10bit prores? F3? nope get a BMC and save your back

Got more money? get an FS7

So its worth half of a (new) bmc4k or C100.

Four lock down F3 at £500 a pop - feeding an o7q might be a good way to record a live event in 10-422 I suppose.

S
 
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4 short years to get from the F3 to FS7 what the heck will be the specs of my next camera?
 
The dealer I bought mine from told me that they sold the F3 by the trainload. Apparently it was a big seller for Sony and therefore the used market is pretty saturated.

I own an F3L and I always felt that the camera was held back by a few key issues.

a) The high cost of the uncompressed RGB slog upgrade. Sony should have made that free a long time ago.
b) The lack of a reasonably priced way to record either uncompressed slog 444 or Prores444. Adding a recorder drove the price up dramatically.
c) The internal codex is mediocre at best.
d) Handycam ergonomics. Seriously Sony?
e) Total lack of support from Sony for a good slog workflow in major packages. Sony seriously dropped the ball on this one.


Back when I bought my F3 I paid for the RGB slog upgrade. The only way to record the uncompressed signal was with a Cinedeck or Gemini444.
So, you were looking at an additional $7000-10,000 for a recorder with media etc. The Pix240 got you Prores444, but also cost about $5000. Rental on these units wasn't exactly cheap either.

To this day you still need to shell out around $3000-3500 for a Odyssey 7Q or Shogun to record the uncompressed signal or Prores444.

So, the actual cost of extracting the full potential of the F3 is quite high. Granted the image quality is exceptionally good, but it did not come cheap.
 
Nirv said:
4 short years to get from the F3 to FS7 what the heck will be the specs of my next camera?
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I think now it's mainly just refinement.

Cameras seem to be changing at an exponential pace, but likewise the size of the changes are shrinking exponentially. In other words, refinement.

What's next?

- Global shutter, instead of rolling

- Possibly more f-stops of dynamic range, but most real-life scenes don't exceed 11 or so f-stops, so it's just icing on the cake. Don't believe me that most scenes are just 11? That's okay, I don't have to dig into the measurements now. But we can agree that once you reach 18 or so f-stops, the shot takes on that eerie High-Dynamic Range Photography look, which is not what most of us are looking for most of the time. So there is an upper limit.

- higher frame rates, but 60 or 120 fps already takes care of 90% of the situations

- possibly 6K or 8K or whateverK, but again, 2K takes care of 90% of the situations and will for a really long time

- better ergonomics

- more use of commodity media instead of specialized, pricey media (as commodity media like SD cards speed up, as specialty cards like XQD and CFast come down in price and maybe become commodity media)

- built-in NDs, consistently, maybe even from good ol' Blackmagic ;)

- lower prices, probably one day stabilizing at $2,000 or $3,000


Even now I could be fine with any of the cameras out today and maybe use it for more than a decade, if global shutter wasn't so high on my list.

I know that some of you will talk about mind controlled cameras that make you coffee, but I'm not sure I'm interested in such a device. I still like to work with my hands, with manual focus, manual iris, etc.

That's all for now.
 
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Dropping values are already happening for F5 and my F55. Maybe not so obvious for new units at retail but quite a few are appearing for sale used. The landscape is changing and there are many more choices to compete at lower price points.
 
Also the buying price for these camera,s is much lower than the old beta/digibeta days.. you will make your money back on a F5 in a year instead of the old 5 yr model for digibeta,s etc.. swings and roundabouts.. Its a better situation these days.. lenses cost a fortune but have a very long shelf life.. my first camera Sony Betacam 400A cost the same as the average house back 25 yrs ago.. the F5 cost less than a car.. ..
 
Tom Roper said:
Dropping values are already happening for F5 and my F55. Maybe not so obvious for new units at retail but quite a few are appearing for sale used. The landscape is changing and there are many more choices to compete at lower price points.
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True but even the un-released new C300 still does not match the F5's(w/4K upgrade) features and options. Actually none of the "many more choices" holds a candle to it, yeah they can shoot 4K but it ends around there.

I was recently thinking about dumping my old F3 for about 2K as my long running 2-camera gig has ended. With these new prices I prob couldnt even get that much.
 
Damn, I wish I could afford to spare a couple of grand right now... that's stupid money for the F3, which would make a superb B-cam to my F5.
 
Grug said:
Damn, I wish I could afford to spare a couple of grand right now... that's stupid money for the F3, which would make a superb B-cam to my F5.
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I've posted it here before but to your point, F5 & F3 mixed. You decide which is which..

 
I've seen the complaints leveled here against the F3, and certainly it has a number of deficiencies, but despite the weak internal codec puts out great images. When the F3 came out, many of us were moving from ground glass adapters, and there wasn't nearly the Canon EF ecosystem for video that there is now - lens bags for video shooting on ground glass adapters revolved around Nikon and Canon FD glass. The F3 came fit well in that world - dumb mounts and everyone was ready to go. But, today, with so many EF based cameras or electronic adapters (M4/3, E-Mount) to EF, people have bags full of EF glass, and EF glass they can rent or borrow. The F3 lens mount never got affordable, integrated electronic EF mounts. There are some options out there, but they're comparatively over priced to what support you get by going to the C100 or a Sony E-Mount camera with adapter. For those still shooting Nikon or such in 1080p, the F3 can still be a bargain. It's just a smaller market segment today, and there are a lot of those cameras out there to be liquidated, new or used.
 
All of the EF lens mount options for the F5(5), will work just as well on the F3. Indeed, I'd have thought the fact that the F3 can use the Optitron mount/controller, gives it a distinct advantage over most EF mount cameras.
 
Grug said:
All of the EF lens mount options for the F5(5), will work just as well on the F3. Indeed, I'd have thought the fact that the F3 can use the Optitron mount/controller, gives it a distinct advantage over most EF mount cameras.
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Optitek Canon Prolock MkIII for Sony F3/F5/F55 - $1,750
http://www.abelcine.com/store/Optitek-Canon-ProLock-Mark-III-for-Sony-F3-F5-and-F55/

Metabones E-Mount to EF MkIV - $399
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...qD988YCFY2RHwodVH0ELw&is=REG&m=Y&A=details&Q=

I know full well there are ways of using Canon lenses on the F3. My point is that it doesn't make good economic math - the sort of shooters who have Canon EF glass and are buying 1080p cameras today are far more likely to buy the C100 for $3000 with native EF operation over a PMW-F3 kit plus optitek (combined $5750, camera and mount). The FS100 plus metabones ($2500, with current rebate) would be an even cheaper way to go, for those who want to save $500 more. And used kits of either the C100 or FS100 could provide an even cheaper entry point.

The above is part of why the PMW-F3 is a hard sell today, even brand spanking new.
 
Viddovation said:
I've seen the complaints leveled here against the F3, and certainly it has a number of deficiencies, but despite the weak internal codec puts out great images.
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Don't get me wrong. The IQ out of the F3 is exceptionally good, even in the current market. I like to think of it as a bargain HD F5. In low light there are few other cameras that can touch it. If you already have a means of recording Prores444 or uncompressed RGB 444 a used example for $2500-3000 is probably the biggest steal around. And it's not just the IQ. The connectivity and reliability of the camera is hard to beat.

I'm going to hold on to mine. At the moment it's worth more to me than what I could get for it.
 
Harry Lime said:
Don't get me wrong. The IQ out of the F3 is exceptionally good, even in the current market. I like to think of it as a bargain HD F5. In low light there are few other cameras that can touch it. If you already have a means of recording Prores444 or uncompressed RGB 444 a used example for $2500-3000 is probably the biggest steal around. And it's not just the IQ. The connectivity and reliability of the camera is hard to beat.

I'm going to hold on to mine. At the moment it's worth more to me than what I could get for it.
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One thing I hate in the used F3 market is the confusion about the RGB/S-Log upgrade. The late production cameras include it by default, but the early ones don't, and plenty of people selling used F3 cameras without the RGB upgrade are sly in how they push "with S-Log firmware upgrade" - which just isn't the same. Creates awful confusion.
 
We are trying to get the OptiTron compatible with Canon cameras as well. But you are absolutely right.
F5 (F3 as well) with the OptiTron2 and the Canon ProLock Mark1-2-3 is the only combo with EFF (electronic follow focus)
For now:
http://optitek.org/products/optitron2/
check out the videos on the bottom of the page ;-)
 
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