Sony NEX FS700-4K?

I'm Done with the CMOS sensor I'm looking for more organic picture and realize that less light sensibility
The CMOS sensor produce very digital picture, feeling like old music from a lp to converting mp3
So not interested anymore 4k pixels give a nice ccd camera with more organic film look and save it internal or raw output 4 4 4.
Big camera companies have to be understand a serious filmmaker or docu maker is more looking to close the gap with traditional analog 35 mm camera's.
So all of the camera's now I see is more wedding camera's category or reporter camera's.
The companies as Ikonoskop or now coming Bolex digital is more close in mine philosophy
 
cane said:
The companies as Ikonoskop or now coming Bolex digital is more close in mine philosophy
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I can see where you are coming from, but actually it´s a niche market.
Ikonoskop isn´t selling much cameras (their sheer ability to do so is an other point).

Frank
 
cane said:
I'm Done with the CMOS sensor I'm looking for more organic picture
Click to expand...

I do not doubt that you've seen some plasticky CMOS footage and organic CCD footage. But as I understand, it's not because of whether it is CCD or CMOS.

I've also seen the opposite: organic CMOS, plasticky CCD. The truth is, CMOS and CCD sensors respond the same way to light: linearly. A certain amount of light becomes a certain electrical voltage. Twice as much light becomes twice as much voltage, and so on.

The trick is in the grading.

 
combatentropy said:
The trick is in the grading.

Yes but you must have enough color information to grading without loosing detail
I see big difference with ccd and cmos all true I have also seen fantastic footage coming out cmos sensor
Every sensor must have his own character I think..I doubt if you can say it's all same light converting in electric signal that's sound to easy for me.
But the ccd from kodak is little difference and more organic that's what I see..
Click to expand...
 
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cane said:
combatentropy said:
The trick is in the grading.

Yes but you must have enough color information to grading without loosing detail
I see big difference with ccd and cmos all true I have also seen fantastic footage coming out cmos sensor
Every sensor must have his own character I think..I doubt if you can say it's all same light converting in electric signal that's sound to easy for me.
But the ccd from kodak is little difference and more organic that's what I see..
Click to expand...

The videos posted from the Digital Bolex look awful - bad lighting, bad grading, just really terrible all around. I don't know how you can really get anything positive out of the few videos we've seen.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry for mine the interrupting of the subject on this thread...( Sony new fs 700 )

But DR is very important issue and what I seen so far by the cmos sensor of dslr's is the nikon much further than outer dslr models maybe the only dslr...
The kodac ccd is also much more filmic with there colors
http://vimeo.com/31082314
http://vimeo.com/36804057
All true it is difficult to see the difference on compress youtube or vimeo files
I will not discussion taste difference but only mention there are more options then pixels
 
cane said:
Thank you maarek !

Would you explain more maybe I can learn something from your thoughts
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CCD is pretty much dead on a prosumer level due to pricing. CMOS manufacturing is growing cheaper and cheaper to manufacture than CCD and scales much better as well. The crazy thing is that camera manufacturers are being forced to increase the size of sensors. This is the exact opposite of the computing/graphics world, where the goal is to decrease chip sizes every 12 months for better power efficiency and also more efficient yields off a single wafer. Cost factors for chip manufacturing grow exponentially relative to size, so you can probably see why most camera companies need to keep cost/chip as low as possible when they have to compete in the 4K chip space.

Unless there is a break-through in CCD manufacturing costs in the next few years, the cost/benefit just doesn't make sense for bigger companies gunning for market share. Plus all the R&D at the moment is going into solving the problems of CMOS (rolling shutter, noise), while the issues with CCD largely remain the same. 4K Bayer CMOS sensors have been deemed acceptable by the industry with high uses both in the RED and Arri Alexa, and prices will continue to drop in fight for market share. As more big franchises and culturally relevant shows/films like Game of Thrones (Alexa) or The Hobbit (RED) entrench themselves into the minds of viewers, we may begin to see the aesthetics of cinematography shift as well.

I do agree with you on the advantages of CCD, including a more pleasing/organic handling of color and better DR. It's the same reason why CCDs are still being used in high-end astronomy equipment where price isn't as much of a concern. Unfortunately, it's going to be an uphill battle to acquire CCD imagery at competitive prices.
 
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jamesc said:
CCD is pretty much dead on a prosumer level due to pricing. CMOS manufacturing is growing cheaper and cheaper to manufacture than CCD and scales much better as well. The crazy thing is that camera manufacturers are being forced to increase the size of sensors. This is the exact opposite of the computing/graphics world, where the goal is to decrease chip sizes every 12 months for better power efficiency and also more efficient yields off a single wafer. Cost factors for chip manufacturing grow exponentially relative to size, so you can probably see why most camera companies need to keep cost/chip as low as possible when they have to compete in the 4K chip space.

Unless there is a break-through in CCD manufacturing costs in the next few years, the cost/benefit just doesn't make sense for bigger companies gunning for market share. Plus all the R&D at the moment is going into solving the problems of CMOS (rolling shutter, noise), while the issues with CCD largely remain the same. 4K Bayer CMOS sensors have been deemed acceptable by the industry with high uses both in the RED and Arri Alexa, and prices will continue to drop in fight for market share. As more big franchises and culturally relevant shows/films like Game of Thrones (Alexa) or The Hobbit (RED) entrench themselves into the minds of viewers, we may begin to see the aesthetics of cinematography shift as well.

So like it or not, the CMOS "look" is here to stay for awhile.
Click to expand...

Thank you and very helpful information yes RED and Arri is clear cinematic levels sadly not in most filmmakers budget range here...Yet !
 
cane said:
Sorry for mine the interrupting of the subject on this thread...( Sony new fs 700 )

But DR is very important issue and what I seen so far by the cmos sensor of dslr's is the nikon much further than outer dslr models maybe the only dslr...
The kodac ccd is also much more filmic with there colors
http://vimeo.com/31082314
http://vimeo.com/36804057
All true it is difficult to see the difference on compress youtube or vimeo files
I will not discussion taste difference but only mention there are more options then pixels
Click to expand...

Actually I think they are horrible.
Every clip I saw from a A-Cam has ether the white balance off towards mellow yellow or was graded that way.
If you after that look, you can shoot on an iPhone, push your blacks toward blue and your lights to yellow in post.

Speaking of the lights, the roll off is errr... not there. Everything seems to get clipped at 80 IRE to a yellow/pinkish flat surface without any texture.
I have no idea, if that is a camera problem, an operator problem, if it is just molested in post or on purpose.
But to me, it doesn´t look good.

my ct2, Frank
 
Postmaster said:
Actually I think they are horrible.
Every clip I saw from a A-Cam has ether the white balance off towards mellow yellow or was graded that way.
If you after that look, you can shoot on an iPhone, push your blacks toward blue and your lights to yellow in post.

Speaking of the lights, the roll off is errr... not there. Everything seems to get clipped at 80 IRE to a yellow/pinkish flat surface without any texture.
I have no idea, if that is a camera problem, an operator problem, if it is just molested in post or on purpose.
But to me, it doesn´t look good.

my ct2, Frank
Click to expand...

Yeah I felt the same way about the Digital Bolex stuff - I really wish they got real pros to shoot their demos, because EVERYTHING they posted looks awful.
 
So, guys - are we forgetting about how Sony has a rep for not canalization other products? I present the F65, their only 4K camera. Sure, it may be a slightly different beast but I still feel that if this isn't a horrible April fools trick then the marketing department is sure to mess this up somehow.
 
hendosan said:
Yeah I felt the same way about the Digital Bolex stuff - I really wish they got real pros to shoot their demos, because EVERYTHING they posted looks awful.
Click to expand...

The guy pitching this thing claims to have been a Hollywood DP for 10 years. And people are falling over themselves to get on this bandwagon - I just don't get it.

But as for the FS700, slo-mo is nice, but let's hope they unleash the DR of the sensor, and redesign the absurd lcd/evf/loupe and awful handgrip.
 
Postmaster said:
Actually I think they are horrible.
Every clip I saw from a A-Cam has ether the white balance off towards mellow yellow or was graded that way.
If you after that look, you can shoot on an iPhone, push your blacks toward blue and your lights to yellow in post.

Speaking of the lights, the roll off is errr... not there. Everything seems to get clipped at 80 IRE to a yellow/pinkish flat surface without any texture.
I have no idea, if that is a camera problem, an operator problem, if it is just molested in post or on purpose.
But to me, it doesn´t look good.

my ct2, Frank
Click to expand...

Same with me. Even if CCD in theory is better, actually CMOS have been getting better and better, perhaps because of the R&D money behind them. Look at the D800 sensor, 14+ stop DR with 36 megapixel and very very good low light. For me beside the DOF the film look is all about DR and when the CMOS are clearly showing 12+ stops, the CCD are stuck in the 10 stop world.
 
cane said:
Sorry for mine the interrupting of the subject on this thread...( Sony new fs 700 )

But DR is very important issue and what I seen so far by the cmos sensor of dslr's is the nikon much further than outer dslr models maybe the only dslr...
The kodac ccd is also much more filmic with there colors
http://vimeo.com/31082314
http://vimeo.com/36804057
All true it is difficult to see the difference on compress youtube or vimeo files
I will not discussion taste difference but only mention there are more options then pixels
Click to expand...

Christ, the image quality on the Ikonoshop is f'ing gorgeous. So much detail and beautiful color. The body is $10k, yes?
 
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