Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

B

Barry_Green

Moderator
Interesting reading in the Sony pre-NAB press kit. Looks like they're starting to acknowledge that people really do want 24P!

They've lowered the cost of entry for their 24P camera... the DSR450WS has native 2/3" 16:9 chips and 24PsF capability! Interesting that the DSR400 series is using 2/3" chips... the DSR390 was 1/2" chips. At $18,000, the DSR450WS is the cheapest Sony 24p camera (although it remains to be seen how it compares against the competition... it's 4:1:1 DVCAM-only, vs. the SPX800 which is about the same price and offers 4:2:2 DVCPRO50 as well). But hey, it's a big step for Sony to acknowledge and provide 24P across their product line!

They've also added new cameras with 24P to the MPEG-IMX ($39,500) and DigiBeta ($48,500) line.

None of those are HD models, but still, the trend is encouraging to see. Welcome to the game, Sony. Now please, blow our doors off with some awesome product!

Sony's pre-NAB press kit is here:
http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5598
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

Oh. My. Gosh.

Did I just read what I think I read?

I just re-read the press release on the new Sony camera. It says it can "capture images in 60i at 24Psf, 25PsF and 30PsF".

At first reading I of course assumed that it was saying that they'd actually added 24p to the line.

But as I re-read it, it *could* be interpreted to say that there are no progressive chips in the cam, and that it's doing the same CF24 mode as the FX1! If that's the case, I think I will finally have lost respect for Sony.

What a ride -- from excitement to shock, all in the space of 10 minutes.

Say it ain't so, Sony!

NAB will be quite interesting, I guess.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

that "s" is certainly not good. im sure its a safe bet to assume that if it was normal 24p they would just say "24p". unless they invented some sort of 24p "super" frames.   ::)

then again they are all about 1080i so it would be a big suprise if its not progressive.  maybe its a deranged marketing ploy to try and get people to think its actually 24p and make them think it sucks. so they want 1080i instead?

or .. maybe they got it right,, and its going to be pretty cool. that would certainly be refreshing.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

Well, don't worry about the "PsF" notation... that's what Sony calls Progressive-Segmented Frame.  It's the technique they use to encode the holy grail, 1920x1080PsF on HDCAM.  So genuine 24PsF is a good thing.

However, CineFrame 24 is *not* a good thing.  I'm flabbergasted that they would introduce CF24 on an $18,000 camera.  What in the world are they thinking?  If that's what they're doing, it's just outrageous.

Well, best of luck to them.  I really hope I'm reading the press release wrong, and that they're actually producing genuine 24p/30p.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

Sony is sometimes very stubborn with this. Even if they did create a lower end cam with 24"P" capability, I wouldn't be suprised if they implemented 24P and called it something different just to seperate themselves from Panasonic just to be stubborn... Kind of like "iLink"... who calls it that!?!
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

According to this:
http://www.broadcastpapers.com/telecine/Evertz1080p04.htm

and every other website I found with a simple google seach of "24psF", the term refers to progressive segmented frames... and is a defintion used to separate true progressive video streams from those stored in an interlaced format.

For that matter, the DVX and XL2 are 24psF.

-Spiff
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

One reason that Sony may not want to announce s "true" 24P is becuase they would have to pay a royalty for infringing on the "film look" patent. Panasonic has licensed the patent and I don't believe that Sony has.

This is similar to the trinitron days - they didn't invent that either.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

[quote author=ChuckS link=board=sony;num=1109011661;start=0#6 date=02/21/05 at 22:14:09]One reason that Sony may not want to announce s "true" 24P is becuase they would have to pay a royalty for infringing on the "film look" patent. [/quote]
I was actually wondering that... so is that an exclusive Panasonic trademark? Does Canon pay to Panasonic for usage of it. No wonder Sony came up with their own firewire name... Firewire is mac so well have to call it something else even though it's the same... sony those .... ;D
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

Yet Sony does offer true 24p (as in, scanning a progressive frame at 24hz) in the CineAlta, and as an add-in option board for their MPEG-IMX and Digital BetaCam cameras (of course, the board itself costs more than a new HDX will).

So we know they can do it. Which makes it all the more insulting that they'd take an $18,000 camera, advertise 24PsF, and then give us CineFrame 24!! Well, again, it remains to be seen at NAB if this interpretation is correct...
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1109011661;start=0#1 date=02/21/05 at 12:57:31]
I just re-read the press release on the new Sony camera.  It says it can "capture images in 60i at 24Psf, 25PsF and 30PsF".
[/quote]

It's poorly-worded, so whoever wrote it needs to find another job. But I think it's a decent description of what the DVX does, if you want to read it that way, and I think it makes more sense that way . . .

But your fears are certainly well-founded.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

k so my understanding is that "PsF" designates a progressive data stream over a progressive format encoded in 60i.  so  it doesnt really actually say whether the original CCD scanning is progressive or not.. they could derive 24 progressive frames from 60i, and store it in a progressive data stream. saying you "capture something in 24PsF" could mean that thats how your laying the imagery to tape..  as a 24p data stream. but it doesnt actually mean the ccd is scanning at 24fps. .. hmm although what i found below seems to indicate that it is  all working at 24fps.. it wouldnt be the fiorst time that sony eludes to 24p  without it actually being 24p. again them saying that its capturing at 24PsF could mean "cineframe24" layed down as 24p on tape.


..on the main top link on that page entiteled "Sony Electronics Pre-NAB 2005 Overview Press Release" ( http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5591 )near the bottom it states the same thing accept clearer..:

"The DSR-400 and the DSR-450WS (wide-screen) models expand Sony's line of DVCAM professional camcorders. Both are based on 2/3-inch Power HAD™ EX CCDs, and the DSR-450WS is a wide-screen model that can capture images in 60i as well as 24PsF, 25PsF (PAL models) and 30PsF. "



which sounds like its the real deal.. which is a good thing. sony doesnt need to screw themsleves over with any more cineframe junk. its a good step forward for the industry if these are all true progressive 24p cameras. 24p needs to be more of a standard and not an accomodation by the hardware and software for editing and post production.. this would help push it in that direction for sure. but it is yet to be determined whether they are in fact true 24p cameras or if they are simply "capturing/recording" a 24p data stream derived from 60i. after all the DVX "captures" in 60i  even though it is a true 24p camera.

Sony, i hope with all my might these are true 24p. for the industry sake, and for Sony's reputation sake, and for anyone mislead with the latest HDV cameras they bought thinking it was actually 24p.

edit: for all practical purposes im assuming they are indeed true 24p at this point. because they talk about the whole lineup being 24p and such, so id be inclined to assume its the real deal. which is a good good thing.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

anyone mislead with the latest HDV cameras
Click to expand...

In all fairness to Sony, I thought they were very specific, and very careful stating that the FX1 and Z1 were NOT true 24p. I can't remember reading any false information from Sony... only confused statements and questions on chat forums.

Do you honestly know of anyone who was misled and bought the camera? Or is this just a campaign against the uneducated masses who wouldn't buy these camcorders anyway? When some releases a good CF24 flick, will you even realize? Will anyone even care? ???

Sony's been working on 24P for ages now in their high-end. You'd think they'd get the lingo right... and it's no benefit to them to misrepresent their products.

Not to jump on a bandwagon (or maybe to... why not?) but I think it would be a good thing for people to adopt the "PsF" terminology... so when something that actually stores and compresses (or not) progressive frames, as opposed to applying pull-downs and recording fields, we can recognize it.
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

Not sure I follow your last sentence spiff. PsF and pulldown of progressive frames are exactly the same thing right?
 
Re: Sony NAB news - Sony goes 24P

"PsF and pulldown of progressive frames are exactly the same thing right?"

More specifically, it looks right now that:
24PsF = 2:3 (on 60i)
24Pa = 2:3:3:2 (on 60i)
24P = makes sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top