FS7: Sony May Lose My Business Over $15

[Viddovation]

I think this is partly a result of the relatively low price of much of the "professional" gear around at the moment. In the past the sort of Sonys you're talking about being bombproof were £70,000 when releases (all the Betacams came in around that). At that price range you can afford to use highest quality components and pay for tons of R&D to get them right.
Steve

I don't disagree.

I would add - equipment used to be primarily composed of hardware, with no updatable firmware components. When products relied entirely on "ship once" hardware a company had to finish a product before releasing it, and a single bug could cost them millions. Hardware components aren't flexible though, and upgrading either meant an entirely new product purchase, or at minimum, sending a unit back to the manufacturer to physically replace an integrated circuit with a new one with new coding. But for all intents and purposes, if equipment would function the same on day one as it would the day you sold it.

Today, more and more components are firmware based - essentially software written to embedded integrated microprocessors and micro controllers. That software can be updated and revised, changing the way the hardware is addressed. And it means that hardware can be sold and shipped before software/firmware has been written to utilize all of the hardware features and capabilities. In a rush to make as much money as possible and beat competitors to market, manufacturers including Sony are releasing their hardware earlier and earlier to lock in sales, promising to finish coding the software/firmware later. But repeatedly, when sales fail to materialize, Sony has backed out on those promises of feature updates. And in other instances, like with the F5, they've saved on cost by using the same elements in multiple cameras, but simply not enabling features the hardware would support to increase sales for the high end unit.

It's rotten.

 

[TheDingo]

None of Sony's engineers or customer service agents came anywhere near this solution. Sony's recent 2.0 firmware upgrade expands a host of shoe related audio properties but doesn't automatically turn off the GPS module when the shoe is activated (assuming an inherent hardware limitation, a firmware fix that automatically turns off the GPS when audio is selected from the shoe would seem to be sensible!), and no one at Sony seems aware of this devastating problem.

Because of the variety of possible combinations with how people use production gear in the field, users are always going to find problems that the manufacturer never anticipated.

If you have a contact at Sony, it would useful to make them aware of this problem and your solution to it, so maybe the next firmware update can automatically take care of this issue.

 

[markfpv]

True - or post a message on Sony's user board and see if they follow up there...certainly still a few they didn't anticipate still popping up.

 

[Viddovation]

Because of the variety of possible combinations with how people use production gear in the field, users are always going to find problems that the manufacturer never anticipated.

If you have a contact at Sony, it would useful to make them aware of this problem and your solution to it, so maybe the next firmware update can automatically take care of this issue.

Does it really make sense to you that a GPS module which is only supposed to encode latitude and longitude coordinates as metadata is going to create audible tones on one very specific audio input (but not the others!)? It's ludicrous. But more to the point - I've never adjusted the GPS settings. They were on default - which was on. That means that in testing their audio modules Sony should have tested this combination of settings. I'm still not ruling out the possibility that some element is a physical defect (say, a poorly shielded audio wire next to a poorly shielded GPS wire).

I've notified my dealer of the problem/solution. But honestly, it's not a problem that should exist in the first place.

 

[TheDingo]

I've notified my dealer of the problem/solution. But honestly, it's not a problem that should exist in the first place.

Yes, of course it shouldn't, but it did.

This is just like the hideous audio "motor-boating" bug with the Panasonic GH4 camera that was first noticed once it started to ship in quantity. After some initial denial that there was a bug, it was two months later that Panasonic offered a free hardware fix, where you had to pay to ship your camera back to Panasonic repair to have this fixed under warranty. I held off buying my camera until I knew I could buy a factory built body without this stupid bug. This GH4 audio bug should never have happened, but it did.

 

[Ben Scott]

Matthew Allard does not belong to the American Society of Cinematographers. You have to have a pretty serious resumé to get inducted to the ASC.

Sorry to be pedantic, but in some circles those 3 letters mean huge things. I know you meant well.

He's an ACS member I believe. Probably a typo

 

[Viddovation]

Yes, of course it shouldn't, but it did.

This is just like the hideous audio "motor-boating" bug with the Panasonic GH4 camera that was first noticed once it started to ship in quantity. After some initial denial that there was a bug, it was two months later that Panasonic offered a free hardware fix, where you had to pay to ship your camera back to Panasonic repair to have this fixed under warranty. I held off buying my camera until I knew I could buy a factory built body without this stupid bug. This GH4 audio bug should never have happened, but it did.

Exactly. Defects happen. It's a matter of customer service. From the tone of your posts it sounds like you have no problem with Sony's typical policies. Fine. We'll have to agree to disagree on what we find acceptable. Personally, when I've been a brand loyal customer spending tens of thousands of dollars with a company, I expect a higher level of service, particularly when the fault is clearly a manufacturer issue, not due to long term wear and tear or abnormal abuse.

I appreciate your opinion, but obviously we're not on the same page.

 

[Ben Scott]

I jumped ship from Red to Sony and while I'd say my FS7 has paid for itself, this is certainly the last Sony camera I will buy for a long time unless something changes drastically. I can just about accept the rush to get to market and a lot of bugs due to be fixed with a firmware revision, but when it has arrived months late and is just about as useless as before, and they genuinely don't seem to stand behind their product whatsoever. And don't even get me started on the extension unit and the horrific raw implementation that is unusable.

This camera shipped with some very bold claims about its abilities. Several months on and luts are all but unusable. raw is terrible. settings reset themselves all the time. waveform monitors switch off when they feel like it. and on and on

 

[Viddovation]

I jumped ship from Red to Sony and while I'd say my FS7 has paid for itself, this is certainly the last Sony camera I will buy for a long time unless something changes drastically. I can just about accept the rush to get to market and a lot of bugs due to be fixed with a firmware revision, but when it has arrived months late and is just about as useless as before, and they genuinely don't seem to stand behind their product whatsoever. And don't even get me started on the extension unit and the horrific raw implementation that is unusable.

Agreed. And mind you, on this very forum I've argued Pro-Sony at users who complained about firmware delays saying you should only buy hardware for it's existing features, not on the promise of features to come. I could live with my $8,000 FS7 is we never got any new features what so ever, and merely got firmware to fix the existing features to work properly. The straw that's breaking my back isn't the slow implementation of new features, but that they don't even stand behind the product as released.

Caveats. It's all... (imagine I cursed here) caveats. Features only work if other features are disabled, or in very particular combinations. It's not intuitive. It's not sensible. It's not practical. I shouldn't have to, when playing producer, have to tell my shooter "make sure you turn off the GPS module before we start the interview, or the audio will be botched" or "the preset white balance doesn't work right, make sure you use the white card" or "Make sure to reset your shutter speed, or it'll revert without you noticing." Professional cameras are supposed to behave in a consistent and reliable manner ensuring confidence that footage will be produced in the expected manner. Sure, caveats can technically be worked around, but in practice they result in undesirable footage because operators have been trained by years of prior equipment with standardized controls that a certain combination of steps are required. Change those steps, and you have chaos.

My FS7 will pay for itself, but my faith is draining quickly.

 

[Ben Scott]

Oh yeah I don't care about new features, with the exception of applying a curve to the raw output as per redcode and arri raw instead of this awful linear with no space for shadow information. Just make it do what it is supposed to do without every single action to shoot something being an exercise in remembering your 500 workarounds.

 

[Lenilenapi]

I don't doubt your experience with Sony, but I do want to note that my experience has been exactly the opposite. Quite a few years ago I had a weird experience with an Ex-1 where the Sony clip browser didn't recognize a shot that hadn't been turned off . Turns out Juan Martinez was habitually looking at the boards and immediately emailed me asking to see the original files and then he notified a month later that the problem had been corrected with new firmware on clip browser. I was floored.

Since then I've been able to stay in touch with Juan when I had various weird problems with the camera and was referred to other managers whose attention has been fantastic. When my FS7 handle was stripping ( I think it was the first). They sent me a new one in the mail immediately and only afterwards asked me to send them mine so they could figure out what was wrong with it.

I think if you have an unusual problem it pays to try to get in touch with the senior level managers because they will be more responsive than just the repair departments general bureaucracy. The Sony community Forum is watched by those guys constantly so try to get their attention there.

Re all the issues with the FS7 - yes I feel the same pain, but it is common with new cameras and I'm sure the low price has something to do with it along with the compartmentalized nature of Sony's R&D. It will be interesting to see what Canon comes up with as competition in a new C300.

 

[Ben Scott]

As the early adopters I do feel if Sony are given a chance to right the problems and don't, then all of these issues should be made far more public.

 

[Viddovation]

I don't doubt your experience with Sony, but I do want to note that my experience has been exactly the opposite. Quite a few years ago I had a weird experience with an Ex-1 where the Sony clip browser didn't recognize a shot that hadn't been turned off . Turns out Juan Martinez was habitually looking at the boards and immediately emailed me asking to see the original files and then he notified a month later that the problem had been corrected with new firmware on clip browser. I was floored.

Since then I've been able to stay in touch with Juan when I had various weird problems with the camera and was referred to other managers whose attention has been fantastic. When my FS7 handle was stripping ( I think it was the first). They sent me a new one in the mail immediately and only afterwards asked me to send them mine so they could figure out what was wrong with it.

I think if you have an unusual problem it pays to try to get in touch with the senior level managers because they will be more responsive than just the repair departments general bureaucracy. The Sony community Forum is watched by those guys constantly so try to get their attention there.

Re all the issues with the FS7 - yes I feel the same pain, but it is common with new cameras and I'm sure the low price has something to do with it along with the compartmentalized nature of Sony's R&D. It will be interesting to see what Canon comes up with as competition in a new C300.

I'm glad you've had a good experience. Hopefully mine will improve.

Typically, when I have an issue, I try to resolve it quietly with the party before being loud or complaining publicly. It seems like the polite and appropriate thing to do. Before posting this thread I had been in touch both with Sony and my dealer. My dealer is apparently pretty busy with NAB right now, and I have the utmost respect for the people at EC Pro. As for Sony - I have had some good experiences in the past, resolving issues for high end gear like the SR-R1. But they have byzantine phone trees and org charts. If you can't get to the right people, you're given the company line.

Now, I'd still love to hear from Juan Martinez or someone else at Sony who's actually empowered to provide real professional customer service. It would mean a lot. But at the point that a company has turned a blind ear through official channels, I do believe it's appropriate and reasonable to share my honest and candid experiences and concerns with the community. The fact is, if there are folks out there facing a tough choice on which gear to buy and which companies to support, this information can be very useful to those decisions.

 

[steve phillipps]

AgProfessional cameras are supposed to behave in a consistent and reliable manner ensuring confidence that footage will be produced in the expected manner. Sure, caveats can technically be worked around, but in practice they result in undesirable footage because operators have been trained by years of prior equipment with standardized controls that a certain combination of steps are required. Change those steps, and you have chaos.

My FS7 will pay for itself, but my faith is draining quickly.

Perhaps that points to the question of exactly what a "professional" product is. Certainly 10 years ago I never would have looked at a £5,000 camera and even dream that it would be a "professional" bit of kit. Obviously technology has moved on so that specs can be up to "professional" levels, ie acceptable for use in a paid market, but as an overall piece of equipment they are quite clearly in the prosumer bracket - the price, and latterly their performance in the field, seems to back that up.
That's why I'd never complain about any issues with something like the FS7777, Cion or BM stuff (short of not aclly being able to shoot nice images!) because at the end of the day I'd look at it and say "it's an $8,000 camera for heavens sake"!
Steve

 

[Ben Scott]

I'd say a professional product is one that people use professionally, and in this arena one that has been pitched thus, and has been picked up by the likes of CNN for documentary work.

In such a fast moving and technology dependant industry it really isn't relevant what the price point of entry was 10 years ago. I'd also add to that with mentioning with the extension unit and media I have spent substantially more than $8,000.

 

[Viddovation]

Perhaps that points to the question of exactly what a "professional" product is. Certainly 10 years ago I never would have looked at a £5,000 camera and even dream that it would be a "professional" bit of kit. Obviously technology has moved on so that specs can be up to "professional" levels, ie acceptable for use in a paid market, but as an overall piece of equipment they are quite clearly in the prosumer bracket - the price, and latterly their performance in the field, seems to back that up.
That's why I'd never complain about any issues with something like the FS7777, Cion or BM stuff (short of not aclly being able to shoot nice images!) because at the end of the day I'd look at it and say "it's an $8,000 camera for heavens sake"!
Steve

I don't expect the same level of sophistication or capability for $8,000 that I would for $80,000. But is it reasonable for an $8,000 piece of equipment to be unreliable and perform in a manner inconsistent with other equipment in sold and used for the same purpose? Shouldn't the shutter control work as expected? Shouldn't the gain control work as expected? Shouldn't any video scopes, to the extent offered, work in a reliable manner consistent with the documentation? Should any LUT tables, to the extent offered, work in a reliable manner consistent with the documentation? Shouldn't the audio inputs perform in a reliable manner consistent with the documentation, free of undesired electronic beeps? Shouldn't the white balance controls perform in a reliable manner, consistent with prior, similar price range products from the same manufacturer?

The above are all issues with this product. None of the above issues plague prior offerings in the same price range like the Sony PMW-EX1 or Sony PMW-F3.

There's a distinct difference between limiting feature set based on price, and having the feature set perform in an unpredictable, unusual, and unreliable manner.

 

[Sttratos]

The Sony PXW-FS7 has shattered that trust. Worse, now faced with a legitimate and specific warranty claim, I'm downright offended by what Sony considers professional customer service. Firstly, no matter how much I've defended it, the truth is the PXW-FS7 is buggy. I'm not talking about a lack of feature implementation - the features that do exist don't always work reliably or properly - even with the latest firmware. Many of these have been documented and discussed ad nauseum on this forum. I won't harp on them again here. But fundamentally, I've never owned a professional Sony product before that was this buggy and unreliable.

Honestly I can say the same. I think the FS7 is the worst Sony camera I ever owned too. Not in features but in the regards you mention. The EX1, the F3 they are all a notch above according to my experience. I also can't shake this feeling of cheap. You don't have to compare it to the big expensive Sony cameras like the F65 or F35 for it to feel cheap. It feels cheap even compared to the F3. Maybe because the F3 was a $16000 camera and the FS7 is a $8000 camera. I'm catching myself telling me that more and more often. It's just a $8000 camera what did you expect. I did expect it somewhat. But I guess not that much. I guess it's everything together. The bugs, the cheap feel, the construction, I don't know. It's very feature rich don't get me wrong. But there's just something that gives it this stench that I can't quite point my finger but to say it's a cheap $8000 camera.

 

[morgan_moore]

Since the beginning Ive been saying I would spend F5 money on a fully functioning FS7

..or maybe an F5ii with audio pots and other stuff the RnGunner needs.

its probaly called the C300ii

 

[Ben Scott]

the c300ii specs look awful to be honest

 

[morgan_moore]

They may look awful, but their wifi probably doesn't interfere with their lav - which one may consider a difference worth it or not.