Sony is introducing yet another format?

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
I'm thinking NXDCAM is simply their version AVCCam... i.e. nothing more than their marketing term for AVCHD in a pro camera.

The camera looks like it could be a strong competitor to the HMC150 and HPX170, it should be interesting to see how it performs in the real world and what it costs.
 
...curious about the gps. well, not curious....more like baffled. why do we need this in every thing that we handle?
 
skinny! said:
...curious about the gps. well, not curious....more like baffled. why do we need this in every thing that we handle?
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its geoencoding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocoded_photo

I assume its for meta tagging purposes, I remember one thing I researched on was the problem of automated meta tagging of photos, the reason this is important is for search engines, the only known way of real meta tagging is by human users, but this is 'expensive'. Auto meta tagging tries to reduce the problem.

Take things like 'Getty Images' this company is massively successful because they use human taggers to tag all there photos which makes it very useful for search engines.

When you take a photo with a digital camera here is the typical data in the jpeg format EXIF metadata:

Code: 
Manufacturer
Model	
Orientation (rotation)	top - left [8 possible values[14]]
Software	
Date and Time	
YCbCr Positioning	
Compression	
x-Resolution	
y-Resolution	
Resolution 
Exposure Time	
FNumber	
ExposureProgram	
Exif Version	
Date and Time (original)	
Date and Time (digitized)	
ComponentsConfiguration	
Compressed Bits per Pixel	
Exposure Bias	
MaxApertureValue	
Metering Mode	Pattern
Flash	
Focal Length	
MakerNote	
FlashPixVersion	
Color Space	sRGB
PixelXDimension	
PixelYDimension	
File Source	
InteroperabilityIndex	
InteroperabilityVersion

this can be extended to video

Anhar
 
I am very curious on if this new camera will be compliant with existing AVCHD cams. It maxes out at 24MBPS and according to Sony, "NXCAM is the first AVCHD camcorder ever to offer the option of recording audio in linear PCM for higher quality, instead of the more common Dolby Digital."

Sony has a long and rich history of trying to make things as proprietary as possible within existing standards (the world used Mini DV, Sony had to come out with DVCAM, the world used SD and CF cards, Sony had to use Memory Sticks, etc.) I wonder if NXCAM will be the same?

The feature set looks pretty great. Native 24p too!

Dan
 
Yeah, Sony loves to create all these different formats, but I think this camera looks like a good piece of gear for someone like me. I shoot mostly weddings and events, with a Canon A1 now. I love it but I want to go full tapeless next year with both a vDSLR and a tapeless pro/prosumer video camera without breaking the bank and my back (as in a full-size shoulder mount camera).

So this new NXCAM format might not be the most amazing thing, but it does seem kinda like Panasonic's AVCCam format.
 
Actually, portrait oriented 16/9 displays are showing up in shopping venues, supermarkets and the like. They are intriguing to look at and may offer new possibilities for film making.
 
puredrifting said:
I wonder if NXCAM will be the same?
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AVCHD has always had the ability to use PCM audio, so it's within the AVCHD spec. Hopefully the NXCAM will be compliant and won't cause any NLE adaptation issues.

The feature set looks pretty great. Native 24p too!
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Native 24p has always been part of AVCHD; the HMC150 and HMC40 both already offer that, and even an older Panasonic consumer model had it. I think some of the Canons offer a native 24p mode as well.
 
Yeah, tall screen isn't that bizarre in digital signage. People are basically "tall screen" format, so for fashion or full-body interview stuff, you'll see portait-oriented plasmas/lcds all the time used in promotion/digital signage.
 
Thanks for filling me in on that Barry, I was under the impression that the 150 only featured over 60 for 24p, I must had that mixed up with the GH1.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
Sony has a long and rich history of trying to make things as proprietary as possible within existing standards (the world used Mini DV, Sony had to come out with DVCAM, the world used SD and CF cards, Sony had to use Memory Sticks, etc.) I wonder if NXCAM will be the same?
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Sony: DVCAM
Panasonic: DVCPRO, DVCPRO50

Sony: HDV
Panasonic: DVCPRO HD

Sony: small and large cassette
Panasonic: small, medium, large and extra-large cassette (small is not used for any flavor of DVCPRO, thank you Panasonic)

Sony: SxS
Panasonic: P2

Sony: MemoryStick (closed spec and is not licensed to 3rd party manufacturers besides SanDisk, big mistake)
Panasonic: SD/SDHC (more widespread, but where is profit for Panasonic?)
 
You know what the difference is, Cranky? Every one of those Panasonic formats is compatible across the board. You could record DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, and DVCPRO-HD all on the same tapes. Or the same P2 cards. And Fuji and Maxell and others made tapes for them. And all the higher-end decks played all the lower-end formats.

So when Sony made DVCAM, what did they do? They made the tape run faster. That's pretty much it. Panasonic made DVCPRO, which was a re-engineering of the format to use a bigger, more robust, metal-particle tape. DVCAM was metal-evaporated cheap consumer tape. So how did the pros/broadcasters react? A massive migration away from Sony Betacam, when they went digital over 70% went DVCPRO.

So when the tapeless format comes out, Panasonic puts out P2. And lets you record every flavor they make on it. DV, DV with 4-channel 48KHz audio, DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, AVC-Intra50, AVC-Intra 100, and even the forthcoming AVC-Ultra. All on the same card. Sony, on the other hand, gives you the XDCAM disc. It can record DVCAM or MPEG-IMX, and that's it. When they came out with HD, they invented the new XDCAM-HD format, but took away MPEG-IMX and DVCAM. So now you have two identical discs, which are incompatible with each other! And then they added XDCAM MPEG422, which is their highest-end disc, which is a third type of disc which is incompatible with the other two! (although backwards compatible, at least the deck can play the other discs; the XDCAM-HD and XDCAM-SD decks can't even play each others' discs).

So then when it comes to memory, do they do like Panasonic and let you have DV, DVCAM, MPEG-IMX, BetaSX, DigiBeta, HDCAM, XDCAM-HD, and HDV all on memory? No, of course not, they for no discernible reason invent an entirely new format, XDCAM-HD, and prevent you from using any of the other formats!

And then they introduce a totally different tapeless format, HDV on compactflash.

And then they introduce a totally different tapeless format, AVCHD on optical disc. And tell us it's "only for consumers".

And then they introduce a totally different tapeless format, AVCHD on MemoryStick, and say that one is "for professionals".

Sorry, if you want to play the proprietary-media, proprietary-format game, Panasonic's track record is way, way, way, way, way more solid than Sony's scattershot approach.


So, instead of your like-for-like chart, let's look at what's really out there (and for sake of sanity, we'll stick with digtal-only, ignoring their plethora of analog tapes):

Panasonic tape: DV on DV tape; DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, all on the same professional-grade tape.
Sony tape: DV, DVCAM, Betacam SX, MPEG-IMX, Digital8, MicroMV, Digital Betacam, HDV, and HDCAM, each and every one of them requiring their own proprietary tape (although DV/DVCAM and HDV could all technically use the same type of tape)

Score: Panasonic supports one type of tape for pro, one for consumer. Sony has six different types of tapes for pros, and three for consumers.

Panasonic tapeless:
P2: DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, AVC-Intra50, AVC-Intra 100, AVC-Ultra -- all on the same memory card
SD: AVC-HD

Panasonic has one proprietary memory card for high-end pro, and one industry-standard commodity memory card for entry-level pro.

Sony tapeless:
SxS cards: only XDCAM-EX
CompactFlash cards: only HDV
MemoryStick cards: only AVCHD (or, when used with a forthcoming adapter for SxS)
XDCAM Disc: MPEG-IMX and DVCAM
XDCAM-HD Disc: XDCAM-HD
XDCAM-MPEG422 Disc: XDCAM-MPEG422

Sony has two proprietary memory cards for pro, one commodity memory card for "pro" HDV, and three incompatible proprietary discs for pro usage.


So now let's look at how Sony's migration strategy works: if you have any of their formats, and you upgrade to their newer formats, you get NO backwards compatibility, NO forwards compatibility, and you have to buy all new decks!!! (with the slight exceptions that BetaSX and DigiBeta could play BetaSP tapes, but not each others'. And HDV decks could play DV tapes.) Other than that, you're pooched and you have to buy all-new, PLUS you have to keep all your old.

Versus Panasonic's migration strategy: Any new deck plays all the old stuff. You're not pooched in any way.

Is it really, truly any wonder why Sony's market share has been plummeting, and Panasonic's has been soaring, among the pro broadcast arena?
 
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I think I found the camera that's going to make me jump ship, (for a run n' gun cam) it's because of the GPS, awesome feature for travel adventure shows for animated maps, can't say enough how important that is to me. It's about time.

The time code I/O is also a big factor for me and the ability to record 4:2:2 to AJA KiPro.

Sweet! If only the GPS was in the EX-1.

Anyone hear a rummored street price yet?
 
I agree that Sony's approach is scattershot. Their HVR-DR60 recorder uses proprietary directory structure to store M2TS files, instead of using XDCAM wrapper. Their MRC1K a different file/directory format, and again not XDCAM. Their NXCAM allows recording MPEG-2 SD video, and AVCHD spec does not allow this, I wonder will Sony use a separate directory tree or will shoehorn these files into existing AVCHD tree? With Sony claiming that AVCHD was for consumers, what they should have done is using XDCAM wrappers for their HDV tapeless recorderes, then adding AVC to XDCAM and offering this format as NXCAM. This would separate the new format from "consumer" AVCHD and would not cap AVC data rate to 24 Mbit/s. Sony's approach is indeed scattershot if not idiotic. They sort of followed the standard, but then deviated from it. They should have stuck to their own professional standard instead.

But Panasonic is not a saint either. Why inventing medium and extra-large tape? Large was too large for shoulder-mount camcorder? Pfft. Panasonic just wanted its own tape form factor. Different tape formulation? This is hardly a part of the standard. What prevents from using this tape in Sony equipment?

DVCAM vs. DVCPRO: 15 micrometers vs 18 micrometers track pitch, both have locked audio. Panasonic uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling across the board, why Panasonic could not insist on having 4:1:1 for PAL DV when the spec was being made? Instead Panasonic made its own flavor of DV IN THE SAME YEAR when DV was introduced.

Massive migration from DigiBeta? I don't know, I am not a pro, all I can do is read stuff off the Web. But I know that Top Gear was shot in DigiBeta until it went HD this year, and that is considering that BBC quite likes DVCPRO, they shot a lot of their expensive series with the SDX. The Polar Special was shot with the HDX900, I wonder what they settled on for the current season and onwards.

So P2 can hold pretty much all formats that Panasonic offers... except AVCHD perhaps. But how come that Panasonic does not allow recording DVCPRO onto the small tape? The HVX200 records DvCPRO onto P2 only, isn't this pushing customers to expensive P2 from cheap tape?

AVCHD on optical disc is part of AVCHD spec. In fact, DVD was the only media for AVCHD in the initial format release in May 2006, but this was quickly fixed in the format update that followed about two months later. Panasonic manufactured DVD-based AVCHD camcorders too. This is all AVCHD-legal, pull the disc out of the camera, stick into a Blu-ray player and it works.

AVCHD on MemoryStick is not a format. AVCHD is a format, MemoryStick is just media, it is not a relevant part of the format. Not anymore, since the industry went to file-based formats from linear ones. For all SD lovers there are SD-to-MS adapters. But I agree that pitching MemoryStick to professionals is... well... not hi-end enough. Sony should have used CF like they did in the MRC1K.

I prefer Canon to both. Canon takes whatever is popular NOW and uses it, be it DV or HDV or AVCHD. Thank you, Canon, for adding native progressive to 1080-line HDV and for having a robust HDV codec. Instead of creating new formats Canon licks out the existing ones. From what I could find on the Web, Canon's HDV cameras are used in higher-profile TV shows and movies than Sony's HDV cameras. I was expecting a similar camera from Canon this year first at CES than at NAB, but Sony managed to come first (after Panasonic, of course). I hope that a new Canon cam will be the best of what we've seen yet: good codec, good sensor, commodity memory.
 
I read the output is tru 10 bit 4:2:2 and not upsampled 8 bit.

Would the smaller nano flash (instead of the AJA KiPro) work on this cam?
 
Cranky said:
But Panasonic is not a saint either.
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Nobody's calling anybody a saint -- just pointing out that for those of who have been here for a long time, there are very, very, very good reasons for guys like Dan and me to have the attitude we have towards Sony stuff. You're new at this, I think you've said you've only been paying attention to video for a couple of years. We've been around this stuff and seen it firsthand for years and years.

Different tape formulation? This is hardly a part of the standard. What prevents from using this tape in Sony equipment?
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Here you are showing your naivete. Sony can't use MP, and besides, the DVCPRO had an 18-micron track instead of DV's 15-micron. It's a bigger, FAR more robust tape. Just look at how the people who know what they're doing voted -- Sony OWNED broadcast with BetaSP, Panasonic wasn't even allowed in the door. But when people switched to digital, they looked at Sony's modified-consumer-based, sped-up 10-micron to 15-micron metal-evaporated flakey dropout tape, and at Panasonic's rugged 18-micron metal-particle designed-for-broadcast-from-the-beginning tape, and they voted overwhelmingly for the more-robust, professional DVCPRO format instead of the DVCAM format which was really nothing other than the DV format run 50% faster.

Panasonic uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling across the board, why Panasonic could not insist on having 4:1:1 for PAL DV when the spec was being made? Instead Panasonic made its own flavor of DV IN THE SAME YEAR when DV was introduced.
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No, they didn't. They introduced their own flavor of DVCPRO. DVCPRO is not DV. DVCPRO uses the same compression, but the tape is an inherent factor, in fact THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR, in why DVCPRO was adopted by broadcast organizations. If you ignore the tape, you miss the entire point.

Anyway, they chose 4:1:1 for PAL DVCPRO because they felt it was better. PAL is an interlaced format, and interlaced SUCKS BAD with 4:2:0. Interlaced 4:2:0 is THE DEVIL. It is horrible. 4:1:1 puts all the chroma on each line and avoids the interlaced hell. They used 4:2:0 on PAL DV because that's what the standard was, but when they made a professional format they went with 4:1:1 because it works better with interlaced footage.

Massive migration from DigiBeta?
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That's not what I said. I said massive migration from Betacam SP, the analog tape format.

So P2 can hold pretty much all formats that Panasonic offers... except AVCHD perhaps. But how come that Panasonic does not allow recording DVCPRO onto the small tape?
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Because it's a different tape! DVCPRO is a format. You were never around during the tape days, so I don't think you understand this. Tape is an inherent factor in the format.

The HVX200 records DvCPRO onto P2 only, isn't this pushing customers to expensive P2 from cheap tape?
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A DVCPRO tape wouldn't fit in the camera! The HVX has a miniDV tape drive. DVCPRO tape is not miniDV tape.

AVCHD on MemoryStick is not a format. AVCHD is a format, MemoryStick is just media, it is not a relevant part of the format. Not anymore, since the industry went to file-based formats from linear ones.
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That's what you'd think. But then why is XDCAM-EX only offered on SxS, and why is SxS only used for XDCAM-EX? Makes no sense. Anyway, media IS still part of what a format is. XDCAM-EX cannot be recorded on an SD card or a MSPro card at all its frame rates, so basically if you want XDCAM-EX, you MUST use the SxS or the hard disk recorder. Anything else is a bastardized version. AVC-Intra is recorded on a P2 card and only a P2 card. I do hope someday they will both be able to afford commoditized memory prices that match the ruggedness and reliability of the P2 system.

But I agree that pitching MemoryStick to professionals is... well... not hi-end enough. Sony should have used CF like they did in the MRC1K.
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Disagree, I don't think CF is a professional media. You can't even write-protect it. At least you can write-protect MSPro and SD and P2 and SxS.

I hope that a new Canon cam will be the best of what we've seen yet: good codec, good sensor, commodity memory.
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Canon seems to enjoy being latest to the party. I expect that they will use AVCHD on SD cards in anything future that they do, and hope that they add new and better features, at affordable prices.
 
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