Sony HDV PAL downconversion to SD NTSC

T

Tibby

Well-known member
I'm planning on renting an Z1U to shoot a short. I've read that Cineframe25 is the best for a "film look" (http://www.cineform.com/products/SonyHDVSupport/CineFrame.htm)

My question is this: I know that the HVR-Z1U will downconvert to from HDV to SD but will it downconvert from PAL HDV to NTSC SD? (ala the Z1U connected to a DV deck or camera)

I want to retain the look, but still be able to edit in FCP. I don't need to retain the framerate,or the HD res, merely the look.

Basically, the HDV Cineframe25 look converted to SD 29.97 DV. I would like SD back up tapes. If it can't be done through the camera, how would I go about it?

Before the questions begin like "why don't I shoot it this way or that way" I'll explain my purposes...I'm basically renting different cameras for different shorts to experiment and test all the different "film look" cameras out there. I've got alot of short scripts lying around and I'm getting antsy to shoot them. I figured this would be a good motivator.

My friend has a DVX, I'm gonna rent an XL2, and the JVC HD100 (when it's released) for other projects.
 
I would avoid doing it in-camera, even if it's possible. I would capture and edit in HD then downres the Cineframe25 to NTSC SD in your NLE. I would think that'd definitely keep the "look," or close to it. You could also try shooting 50i and letting the NLE do the de-interlacing and framerate conversion at the same time (not sure if it would be better or worse, just something to try). I have the FX1, so I don't have the option of trying it myself, but I'd love to hear the results. :)
 
Editing in HD may tax my Mac (G4, 733mhz, 768mb ram, OSX10.3.9 Final Cut Pro HD 4.5). Besides adding more a little more ram it's as fast as it's gonna go.

The way the FX1/H1U works is that the cineframe25 actually streams from the camera at 50i

Can I set my NLE capture settings to SD NTSC 29.97 and capture the footage that way?

I guess I'm looking for the best way to convert that PAL 50i HD to NTSC 29.97 SD
 
I don't have extensive experience with Final Cut so I'm not sure if can convert on the fly or not...

I think the key is avoiding the DV codec if possible, but to be honest I haven't yet rendered any HDV to DV, just commenting on footage I've seen around these forums.

Maybe someone with Final Cut and a Z1 can give you a better answer. Also, I imagine the look of HDV Cineframe25 to NTSC SD would be similar to the look of The Office (the original UK version) on NTSC DVD.
 
You Mac won't run HDV with FCP5 so you will have to downconvert in the camera and work with SD DV.

You can shoot CF25 or shoot 50i and convert in FCP using Graeme Nattresse's film tools (www.nattress.com), Magic Bullet etc. Doing it in post gives you much more flexibility.

These tools will also assist with the conversion of 25fps to 23.976fps plus 3:2 pulldown for 29.97fps.

Standards converting directly from 25fps to 29.97fps should be avoided as this will give it a TV look.
 
For an HDV workflow, I'd shoot 50i, de-interlace in post, and then output as quicktime, and use Cinema Tools to conform the 25p to 23.98fps for 24p output for NTSC.

For a DV workflow, shoot CF25, capture as PAL DV, edit, output as quicktime, and use Cinema Tools to conform the 25p to 23.98fps for 24p output for NTSC.

My Film Effects filters could be used without frame rate conversion to enhance the look of what was shot. The gamma curves in Film Effects do really nice things to footage shot on that camera.

Graeme
 
Thanks Graeme that was also really helpful. It appears that is the best way to go.

Alas, I am still curious about my original question (which I'm not quite sure will ever be answered). Will the camera itself do the conversion itself? I know it can do a HDV to SD conversion internally, but can it do it from PAL to NTSC?
 
my workflow

my workflow

I've been doing this succesfully with Final Cut Pro 5. It's very easy.

1. Shoot in Cineframe if possible. Deinterlacing properly in post is complicated and time consuming. Results are never that good. I know some people say you will lose resolution, but an interlaced camera is always going to give you resolution problems. At least in CF25 the deinterlacing is done before MPEG2 encoding, and that will save you lots of trouble. I always shoot at shutter speed 50, the camera will set to 25 if you leave on automatic, I suppose that contributes to what people call "film look".

2. Connect the Sony to your Mac in FCP5. Log and capture. Your material is ready to edit immediately.

3. Edit.

4. Use compressor 2 advanced compression to export to NTSC, in whichever codec, format, and resolution you prefer. This is very high quality, provided you give it the proper settings. Some settings will give you excellent conversion options, that you will find nowhere else, but are very time consuming. Even on my Powermac G5 with dual 2.5.

That's it. Before Final Cut Pro 5 I had another workflow:

1. take the footage to After Effects.
2. Reinterpred the footage to 23.97 FPS
3. Convert resolution and aspect ratio
4. Export to desired codec.

The video I was exporting was 24fps, which is compatible with all US DVD players.
 
Compressor 2 is very time consuming. At standard def it took me 4h30mins to do a NTSC to PAL conversion of 1 minute of footage. Ouch. At lower settings, C2 looked really bad, so I only think the highest settings are in any way usable. That's why I still use my own converter :-) I don't have a networked army of 40 G5s so that I can render as fast as my converter.

As for workflow, I'd suggest that using Cinema Tools to conform your 25p to 23.98p is the best route to go, but you have to do that on non-mpeg2 footage. That would mean using an uncompressed or lightly compressed intermediate, either before or after downconversion depending upon workflow.

There's another advantage to shooting 50i not CF25, and that's the ability to do much better slowmo with interlaced 50i than with progressive 25p, and for me that outweighs the time-savings of not de-interlacing in post. And I'd hardly call post de-interlacing complex - it's easy and results can be excelllent indeed with a decent de-interlace algorithm.

Graeme
 
but you don't need very demanding settings if your footage is cineframe to start with. If you're working with interlaced, the program has to do a lot more work to figure out the missing frames.
 
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