Sony HDV ok
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Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=SimonMW link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#41 date=12/13/04 at 01:04:54]Hope you're not referring to me (Simon Wyndham)?
Cos I certainly aint no Serjej or whatever his name is.[/quote]
No. Not you. Problem taken care of.
[quote author=SimonMW link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#41 date=12/13/04 at 01:04:54]Hope you're not referring to me (Simon Wyndham)?
Cos I certainly aint no Serjej or whatever his name is.[/quote]No. Not you. Problem taken care of.
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=Ranger link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#32 date=12/11/04 at 15:42:05]
Machts nichts to me what bandwagon you jump on. To each his own. However, what raises my eyebrows is this collective slamfest exhibited towards the FX1/Z1. The FX1 has barely left the starting gate and the Z1 will not be released for several months, and yet so many people seem all too quick to condemn the camera without even allowing it to stretch its legs.
Sure, over time the FX1/Z1 may in fact fail miserably, but premature negative nitpicking and going to extreme lengths to find fault is IMO counter-productive.
For me, I think I'll wait for Jarred's and Barry's camera shootout before passing judgement. That seems a far better solution than recklessly slinging mud around.[/quote]
You raise many good points, Ranger.
What kills this specific camera for me is not the HD but the 24p. Testing has shown that Cineframe24p is not a viable alternative.
I've got nothing against HD, of course, but I'd rather wait for a model which can deliver true 24p. This cam can't, so that's the only ***** I have with it. Unfortunately, it's a decisive one.
I had as high of hopes as anyone for it. I'm looking forward to 24p HD at the prosumer level.
So, I don't "slam" this camera; I only say it’s a first-generation offering that doesn’t have what I want yet.
[quote author=Ranger link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#32 date=12/11/04 at 15:42:05]
Machts nichts to me what bandwagon you jump on. To each his own. However, what raises my eyebrows is this collective slamfest exhibited towards the FX1/Z1. The FX1 has barely left the starting gate and the Z1 will not be released for several months, and yet so many people seem all too quick to condemn the camera without even allowing it to stretch its legs.
Sure, over time the FX1/Z1 may in fact fail miserably, but premature negative nitpicking and going to extreme lengths to find fault is IMO counter-productive.
For me, I think I'll wait for Jarred's and Barry's camera shootout before passing judgement. That seems a far better solution than recklessly slinging mud around.[/quote]
You raise many good points, Ranger.
What kills this specific camera for me is not the HD but the 24p. Testing has shown that Cineframe24p is not a viable alternative.
I've got nothing against HD, of course, but I'd rather wait for a model which can deliver true 24p. This cam can't, so that's the only ***** I have with it. Unfortunately, it's a decisive one.
I had as high of hopes as anyone for it. I'm looking forward to 24p HD at the prosumer level.
So, I don't "slam" this camera; I only say it’s a first-generation offering that doesn’t have what I want yet.
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#44 date=12/13/04 at 06:58:11]
I'm looking forward to 24p HD at the prosumer level.
[/quote]
You might be in for a long wait, cuz the HDV spec does not include 720 24P nor 1080 24P.
These may show up in perhaps a Pro HDV format, or not at all, especially at prosumer prices. I believe the CineAlta is the only camera capable of 1080 24P at the moment.
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=30#44 date=12/13/04 at 06:58:11]
I'm looking forward to 24p HD at the prosumer level.
[/quote]
You might be in for a long wait, cuz the HDV spec does not include 720 24P nor 1080 24P.
These may show up in perhaps a Pro HDV format, or not at all, especially at prosumer prices. I believe the CineAlta is the only camera capable of 1080 24P at the moment.
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=Bukkake link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=45#45 date=12/13/04 at 07:03:35]
You might be in for a long wait, cuz the HDV spec does not include 720 24P nor 1080 24P.
[/quote]
It doesn't. But then, DV has no spec for 24p, either, but Panasonic managed to do it.
I suspect it can be done in HDV the same way -- on-the-fly telecine.
[quote author=Bukkake link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=45#45 date=12/13/04 at 07:03:35]
You might be in for a long wait, cuz the HDV spec does not include 720 24P nor 1080 24P.
[/quote]
It doesn't. But then, DV has no spec for 24p, either, but Panasonic managed to do it.
I suspect it can be done in HDV the same way -- on-the-fly telecine.
Re: Sony HDV ok
Sony claims its Cineframe24 mode does a reverse telecine and then a telecine. Looks like it will work once there are true 24p chips.
Sony claims its Cineframe24 mode does a reverse telecine and then a telecine. Looks like it will work once there are true 24p chips.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Sony HDV ok
JVC has already announced plans to make an HDV 1080/24p camera (presumably using the same technique as Panasonic and Canon use for DV). They showed a mockup last April, so presumably it won't be too far away (although it was supposed to carry a $20,000 price tag).
And Panasonic's already teased a prosumer mockup with a DVCPRO-HD tag on the side of it.
Just because HDV doesn't do it, doesn't mean we won't ever see it. And the final bell hasn't rung over whether HDV will be the "format of the future"... Sony's been the prime mover behind plenty of failed formats (and Blu-ray looks like the latest)... (yes Disney signed on, but didn't Disney also sign on to Divx, and to disposable-dvd, and to...)
The jury is still out. The ball is most definitely in Panasonic's court, as JVC and Canon and Sony have all committed to HDV. If Panasonic joins the HDV coalition, then HDV is the future. If they present a DVCPRO-HD alternative, then the battle begins. I for one would very much like to see a DVCPRO-HD camera with 24P (but then again, who wouldn't?)
JVC has already announced plans to make an HDV 1080/24p camera (presumably using the same technique as Panasonic and Canon use for DV). They showed a mockup last April, so presumably it won't be too far away (although it was supposed to carry a $20,000 price tag).
And Panasonic's already teased a prosumer mockup with a DVCPRO-HD tag on the side of it.
Just because HDV doesn't do it, doesn't mean we won't ever see it. And the final bell hasn't rung over whether HDV will be the "format of the future"... Sony's been the prime mover behind plenty of failed formats (and Blu-ray looks like the latest)... (yes Disney signed on, but didn't Disney also sign on to Divx, and to disposable-dvd, and to...)
The jury is still out. The ball is most definitely in Panasonic's court, as JVC and Canon and Sony have all committed to HDV. If Panasonic joins the HDV coalition, then HDV is the future. If they present a DVCPRO-HD alternative, then the battle begins. I for one would very much like to see a DVCPRO-HD camera with 24P (but then again, who wouldn't?)
Gary_McClurg
Well-known member
Re: Sony HDV ok
I think Bill Turner said that he heard that a 16x9 DVX (no HD I think) is coming soon or the rumor is its coming soon. Now thinking about that could he know something since they'd get a beta tester sooner than us to make adapters, etc.
So when the camera comes the wide angle, etc. are ready. Just one of my wild ideas as I repair for a cold night. At least cold for this california transplant. 17degrees.
I think Bill Turner said that he heard that a 16x9 DVX (no HD I think) is coming soon or the rumor is its coming soon. Now thinking about that could he know something since they'd get a beta tester sooner than us to make adapters, etc.
So when the camera comes the wide angle, etc. are ready. Just one of my wild ideas as I repair for a cold night. At least cold for this california transplant. 17degrees.
Hayden_Rivers
Active member
Re: Sony HDV ok
You realize that Juan announced his mod almost 11 months ago? (January 25th, 2004 to be exact). And at this point we have seen no moving clips, have no ETA, and no price point. The beta testing hasn't even started so I wouldn't be very surprised if you're unable to get Juan's mod within the next 6 months.
And even when you are able to get it, there's no guarantee that it's going to be worth it. We'll see, but honestly I'm surprised there isn't more skepticism about the mod overall.
You realize that Juan announced his mod almost 11 months ago? (January 25th, 2004 to be exact). And at this point we have seen no moving clips, have no ETA, and no price point. The beta testing hasn't even started so I wouldn't be very surprised if you're unable to get Juan's mod within the next 6 months.
And even when you are able to get it, there's no guarantee that it's going to be worth it. We'll see, but honestly I'm surprised there isn't more skepticism about the mod overall.
darkavenger
Active member
Re: Sony HDV ok
where is the website for this algorith CAS uprezz that they're talking about?
where is the website for this algorith CAS uprezz that they're talking about?
SimonMW
Member
videoman69
Member
Re: Sony HDV kicks butt!
Re: Sony HDV kicks butt!
I just can not believe all of this nonsense being reported about the FX1 - Let me start by saying I have owned the DVX100 for 6 months and used it daily, and recently picked up a DVC30 as a backup. The DVX is a killer camera, but it has its drawbacks which we all know.
I picke dup the FX1 2 weeks ago and have been blown away by the footage I take. I too hate teh video look, which is why I bought the DVX in the 1st place. You just can NOT use the FX1 in cineframe 24 - it sucks, this is true...BUT in cineframe 30 it blows away my footage from both panny's with the dvx at 24p and teh dvc30 at 30. I use the film gamma settings and the look in cineframe 30 is a very smooth, film like image with detail that blows away my DVX footage.
Also, what is all of this talk about downconverting in Vegas?? Just set the DVX to downconvert in camera, in real time through firewire in to your editing program. I edit in Apple FCP, which does not yet support HDV, but I just have teh cam downconvert into FCP, in real time as I capture. There is no rendering time involved at all, and the finished product is amazing. CLean, noise free 100%, perfect color and white balance. The FX1 beats my DVX hands down, plus I shoot only in HD mode becuase the footage looks better than in sd mode when viewed on a normal TV. WHen hooked up to an HD TV you will be amazed.
I see NO drawback to the FX1. Side by side tests of my footage shows the cineframe 30 mode to look just as good as the panny 24p but with more detail, better color and better low light as there is NO noise at all with the FX1, even in total darkness.
But, always shoot in HD mode, always use cine 30 and the film like gamma setting. If you shoot in DV mode the footage will be the same as a VX2000. Plus, no need for an anamorphic lens, the focus is fast and spot on at all times, its built VERY well (Better than the DVX) and the controls and LCD are just about perfect.
I get 8 hours of battery life with the largest battery. I have not had one drop out and I use sony standard dv tapes. No smearing. Just beautiful video every time. So those of you bashing teh FX1 must not have one. Dont believe everything you hear. Im selling my DVX and DVC30!
Re: Sony HDV kicks butt!
I just can not believe all of this nonsense being reported about the FX1 - Let me start by saying I have owned the DVX100 for 6 months and used it daily, and recently picked up a DVC30 as a backup. The DVX is a killer camera, but it has its drawbacks which we all know.
I picke dup the FX1 2 weeks ago and have been blown away by the footage I take. I too hate teh video look, which is why I bought the DVX in the 1st place. You just can NOT use the FX1 in cineframe 24 - it sucks, this is true...BUT in cineframe 30 it blows away my footage from both panny's with the dvx at 24p and teh dvc30 at 30. I use the film gamma settings and the look in cineframe 30 is a very smooth, film like image with detail that blows away my DVX footage.
Also, what is all of this talk about downconverting in Vegas?? Just set the DVX to downconvert in camera, in real time through firewire in to your editing program. I edit in Apple FCP, which does not yet support HDV, but I just have teh cam downconvert into FCP, in real time as I capture. There is no rendering time involved at all, and the finished product is amazing. CLean, noise free 100%, perfect color and white balance. The FX1 beats my DVX hands down, plus I shoot only in HD mode becuase the footage looks better than in sd mode when viewed on a normal TV. WHen hooked up to an HD TV you will be amazed.
I see NO drawback to the FX1. Side by side tests of my footage shows the cineframe 30 mode to look just as good as the panny 24p but with more detail, better color and better low light as there is NO noise at all with the FX1, even in total darkness.
But, always shoot in HD mode, always use cine 30 and the film like gamma setting. If you shoot in DV mode the footage will be the same as a VX2000. Plus, no need for an anamorphic lens, the focus is fast and spot on at all times, its built VERY well (Better than the DVX) and the controls and LCD are just about perfect.
I get 8 hours of battery life with the largest battery. I have not had one drop out and I use sony standard dv tapes. No smearing. Just beautiful video every time. So those of you bashing teh FX1 must not have one. Dont believe everything you hear. Im selling my DVX and DVC30!
Re: Sony HDV ok
I want to criticise Sony not FX1, 'taking this opportunity'.
I have to again harp on the old issue of the MICROMV stunt cams by Sony. But unofrtunately that has become my achilles heel....that's why.
I remember years back Sony was like a ...guaranteed icon of quality and customer satisfaction to me. But my ideas changed drastically after I purchased one of their MICROMV cams...IP220. Those who are familiar with the MICROMV cams would know that it was an attmept by Sony to launch their own propriety format, vis a vis the DV format, that msierably failed. I know technology is technology...new ones are bound to come out and succeed or fail....but what matters is the attitude and professionalism of the marketing company of the new technology. I really did not want to say it but after the numerous problems with the cam, I found Sony the worst company I have ever dealt with. They were simply trying to hide their stupid mistake by not listening to the genuine complaints of so many of those who had purchased their stunt cams for thousands of dollars, with a faith in the name SONY.
SONY not only discontinued manufaturing several models of the MICROMV cams subsequently but also withdrew support for its accessories. Equipment worth thousands of dollars was rendered scrap overnight. I was lucky enough to have sold my cam for 400dollars, which I had got for hefty 2000, within 7 months of the lauch of the model. I have heard the same camera is now available dirt cheap....if someone is still interested
.
What I am trying to say is that SONY, with such a bad track record of intoducing new, untested tech products, by no means could be trusted with yet another stunt.
Believe me I am not saying it since I am an owner of DVX or a member of this forum.... I really want all of you...who might read my comments...to think twice before investing their hard earned moeny on ANY un-tested technology from the company.
These are just the feelings of an ex-sony-customer. I am not on Panasonic's pay roll either ;D
I want to criticise Sony not FX1, 'taking this opportunity'.
I have to again harp on the old issue of the MICROMV stunt cams by Sony. But unofrtunately that has become my achilles heel....that's why.
I remember years back Sony was like a ...guaranteed icon of quality and customer satisfaction to me. But my ideas changed drastically after I purchased one of their MICROMV cams...IP220. Those who are familiar with the MICROMV cams would know that it was an attmept by Sony to launch their own propriety format, vis a vis the DV format, that msierably failed. I know technology is technology...new ones are bound to come out and succeed or fail....but what matters is the attitude and professionalism of the marketing company of the new technology. I really did not want to say it but after the numerous problems with the cam, I found Sony the worst company I have ever dealt with. They were simply trying to hide their stupid mistake by not listening to the genuine complaints of so many of those who had purchased their stunt cams for thousands of dollars, with a faith in the name SONY.
SONY not only discontinued manufaturing several models of the MICROMV cams subsequently but also withdrew support for its accessories. Equipment worth thousands of dollars was rendered scrap overnight. I was lucky enough to have sold my cam for 400dollars, which I had got for hefty 2000, within 7 months of the lauch of the model. I have heard the same camera is now available dirt cheap....if someone is still interested
.What I am trying to say is that SONY, with such a bad track record of intoducing new, untested tech products, by no means could be trusted with yet another stunt.
Believe me I am not saying it since I am an owner of DVX or a member of this forum.... I really want all of you...who might read my comments...to think twice before investing their hard earned moeny on ANY un-tested technology from the company.
These are just the feelings of an ex-sony-customer. I am not on Panasonic's pay roll either ;D
videoman69
Member
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=monster link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=0#12 date=12/10/04 at 07:09:51]>Trying to get it to do anything else (act as a regular DV >camera, simulate the film look, make DVD's of the footage >etc) it falls down[/quote]
FALSE - Always use in HD mode, have camera set to downconvert through firewire in real time. Much nicer than DV mode. Always use cine 30 mode, and film gamma. The film look in this mode looks just as nice as my 24p panny footage. Just cleaner, better color and no nise at all.
the DVD I made with the FX1 is awesome. I own the FX1 and DVX...
[quote author=monster link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=0#12 date=12/10/04 at 07:09:51]>Trying to get it to do anything else (act as a regular DV >camera, simulate the film look, make DVD's of the footage >etc) it falls down[/quote]
FALSE - Always use in HD mode, have camera set to downconvert through firewire in real time. Much nicer than DV mode. Always use cine 30 mode, and film gamma. The film look in this mode looks just as nice as my 24p panny footage. Just cleaner, better color and no nise at all.
the DVD I made with the FX1 is awesome. I own the FX1 and DVX...
videoman69
Member
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=15#15 date=12/10/04 at 11:12:40]
It's just not anywhere near as good as the class-leading DV cameras, when producing DV footage. The DVX is a full two stops faster in low-light conditions, produces sharper footage, and has nearly two stops more latitude than the FX1 in DV mode, and the FX1 suffers more vertical smear. And if you want to use it as a 16:9 camera (because it does have 16:9 chips) then the XL2 is about a half-stop faster than the FX1, produces sharper footage in native 16:9 mode, offers about a half-stop more latitude, and delivers 24P/30P/60i vs. the 60i-only of the FX1.
Seriously, a Sony VX2000 is a significantly better DV-only camera than the FX1 would be, at around half the price. The FX1 is specifically and only a high-def interlaced camera, and in that context it shines well. For any other usage it isn't as good as the others.
[/quote]
Again, false information. How can this be posted without the poster using or owning an FX1? I own teh FX1, and a DVX. I have owned teh DVX for 6 months, and the FX1 almost 2 weeks.
Low Light - I get MUCH better results from the FX1. NO NOISE AT ALL, even in total darkness.
Sharpness - I get much more detail out of the FX1, not even close here.
Vertical Smear - NONE whatsoever with daily use of the FX1. havent seen it yet.
Vs XL2 - I used an Xl2 for a day, but HATED It. I compared teh footage I took that day with the Xl2 to FX1 footage. In 16X9 - Fx1 wins again. Low light, FX1 wins.
Vs VX2000 - In straight DV mode they are about equal, but you should NOT use the FX1 in DV mode, ever as there is NO need to. use it n HD mode. When you view on a normal TV the cam downconverts in real time to SD and it loks much better than DV mode. Same with editing. The fireiwre port can be set to HD or HD>SD real time. This produces a much nicer image than standard DV mode.
Also I have experienced no drop outs at all. plus, as a bonus, when viewedon my HD tv the picture is incredible.
I see no drawback to the FX1 at all. If you use it right (CIneframe 30, film gamma, hd mode) then it beats the DVX in every area, and it even looks filmish (in 30 mode)
Im so impressed with it Im selling my DVX this week. Its a night and day difference when I compare the 2. Plsu I get better color and WB with the Sony.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=15#15 date=12/10/04 at 11:12:40]
It's just not anywhere near as good as the class-leading DV cameras, when producing DV footage. The DVX is a full two stops faster in low-light conditions, produces sharper footage, and has nearly two stops more latitude than the FX1 in DV mode, and the FX1 suffers more vertical smear. And if you want to use it as a 16:9 camera (because it does have 16:9 chips) then the XL2 is about a half-stop faster than the FX1, produces sharper footage in native 16:9 mode, offers about a half-stop more latitude, and delivers 24P/30P/60i vs. the 60i-only of the FX1.
Seriously, a Sony VX2000 is a significantly better DV-only camera than the FX1 would be, at around half the price. The FX1 is specifically and only a high-def interlaced camera, and in that context it shines well. For any other usage it isn't as good as the others.
[/quote]
Again, false information. How can this be posted without the poster using or owning an FX1? I own teh FX1, and a DVX. I have owned teh DVX for 6 months, and the FX1 almost 2 weeks.
Low Light - I get MUCH better results from the FX1. NO NOISE AT ALL, even in total darkness.
Sharpness - I get much more detail out of the FX1, not even close here.
Vertical Smear - NONE whatsoever with daily use of the FX1. havent seen it yet.
Vs XL2 - I used an Xl2 for a day, but HATED It. I compared teh footage I took that day with the Xl2 to FX1 footage. In 16X9 - Fx1 wins again. Low light, FX1 wins.
Vs VX2000 - In straight DV mode they are about equal, but you should NOT use the FX1 in DV mode, ever as there is NO need to. use it n HD mode. When you view on a normal TV the cam downconverts in real time to SD and it loks much better than DV mode. Same with editing. The fireiwre port can be set to HD or HD>SD real time. This produces a much nicer image than standard DV mode.
Also I have experienced no drop outs at all. plus, as a bonus, when viewedon my HD tv the picture is incredible.
I see no drawback to the FX1 at all. If you use it right (CIneframe 30, film gamma, hd mode) then it beats the DVX in every area, and it even looks filmish (in 30 mode)
Im so impressed with it Im selling my DVX this week. Its a night and day difference when I compare the 2. Plsu I get better color and WB with the Sony.
Re: Sony HDV ok
Gotta say, videoman, all that sounds a little too enthusiastic to be gospel.
I'm waiting with interest as to what Barry has to say about the pro model.
Gotta say, videoman, all that sounds a little too enthusiastic to be gospel.
I'm waiting with interest as to what Barry has to say about the pro model.
Re: Sony HDV ok
[quote author=videoman69 link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=45#57 date=12/14/04 at 06:39:47]
Again, false information. How can this be posted without the poster using or owning an FX1? I own teh FX1, and a DVX. I have owned teh DVX for 6 months, and the FX1 almost 2 weeks.
[/quote]
Dude, you're dissing Barry. He doesn't have that "DVXuser Guru" tag under his name for nothing. He doesn't post ANYTHING without solid info. He HAS used and tested the cam.
There are a LOT of seasoned pros on this board who have forgotten more about cameras and filmmaking than most of us will be blessed to know (Barry is one). Be careful who you're disparaging.
[quote author=videoman69 link=board=sony;num=1102579536;start=45#57 date=12/14/04 at 06:39:47]
Again, false information. How can this be posted without the poster using or owning an FX1? I own teh FX1, and a DVX. I have owned teh DVX for 6 months, and the FX1 almost 2 weeks.
[/quote]
Dude, you're dissing Barry. He doesn't have that "DVXuser Guru" tag under his name for nothing. He doesn't post ANYTHING without solid info. He HAS used and tested the cam.
There are a LOT of seasoned pros on this board who have forgotten more about cameras and filmmaking than most of us will be blessed to know (Barry is one). Be careful who you're disparaging.