FS7: Sony FX9 v Canon C500 mkII

[Grug]

Can anyone confirm if I'm just an idiot?

To me, one of the most exciting features of the C500ii was the 4k raw recording, downsampled from the full 6k sensor. Files sizes only a little bigger than 4k Prores, with the improved image quality of a downsampled sensor. And the ability to shoot the same 4k raw files for both full-frame and S35mm crop modes, and use the S35mm mode as an effective 1.5x teleconverter.

Reading through Canon's listed specs for the camera now, I can no longer see 4k (full sensor) raw recording listed anywhere.

Am I losing my mind? Was this a spec I simply imagined? I was certain I'd seen multiple recording format breakdowns posted that listed both 4k and 6k raw recording options for the full frame image.

Feeling very confused now.

 

[Gary T]

Can anyone confirm if I'm just an idiot?

To me, one of the most exciting features of the C500ii was the 4k raw recording, downsampled from the full 6k sensor. Files sizes only a little bigger than 4k Prores, with the improved image quality of a downsampled sensor. And the ability to shoot the same 4k raw files for both full-frame and S35mm crop modes, and use the S35mm mode as an effective 1.5x teleconverter.

Reading through Canon's listed specs for the camera now, I can no longer see 4k (full sensor) raw recording listed anywhere.

Am I losing my mind? Was this a spec I simply imagined? I was certain I'd seen multiple recording format breakdowns posted that listed both 4k and 6k raw recording options for the full frame image.

Feeling very confused now.

I don't remember a supersampled 4K RAW on the C500 MKII, but Alistair mentioned in an IBC interview that the FX9 will have some kind of scaled full frame 4K RAW. At this point the only announced FX9 RAW recorder is Atomos' 8K Neon desktop recorder-monitor line so I'm not so sure how practical RAW recording will be on the Sony but time will tell.

The whole idea of SS RAW is a bit strange to me but I guess it could be great depending on how the scaling is done. I would imagine you would get better quality doing it in software but working with 6K RAW is obviously resource intensive so I understand why it would nice to have an in-camera SS option.

 

[Donny 123]

The Canon is 20mm longer than it is tall. And it's only 5.5mm taller than the Sony - that's nothing. Pop a v-mount plate and battery on the back of it, and you'll be at a perfectly neat and tidy length to pop it on your shoulder:

C500ii
168mm Long x 153mm Wide x 148mm High @ 1.7kg

FX9
229.1mm Long x 146.1mm Wide x 142.5mm High @ 2kg



The simplest (and cheapest) option would be to just put the Zacuto loupe on the Canon's onboard monitor. Lots of people are doing that with the C200 apparently and it sounds like it works very well. That'd give you matching functionality to the FX9's loupe setup for shooting outdoors (with the added ability to just use the monitor as a monitor when you're indoors).

So I don't see there being MORE of a reason to purchase an additional EVF for the Canon than there is for the Sony. They both seem pretty equivalent on that front.

And if you do decide you need a dedicated EVF for either camera, as Sam mentioned, at least the Canon gives you the option of a dedicated solution with a single cable for power and video. You certainly pay a premium for it, but there are good third party options at significantly lower prices.

I just wouldn't go anywhere near a camera thats been designed with the EVF at the back.. each to their own of course .. big shame the fx9 EVF loupe is not been better designed but at least in the right place..

 

[Donny 123]

I cant see really why one would want an FX9 over the C500.

Uses..

Minimal Build.
C500.
Having used the C200.. one can use it in the sun using the surprisingly good rear EVF and side-handle
Here shortness is a good thing.
FS7
With or no chimney pot on the EVF the FS7 is pretty horrid in this build and with no chimney one cant see in the sun.

Shoulder build.
C500 - you can buy a proper EVF powered by the camera, you can shoot raw
FS7 The EVF is all wrong as the wire is too short - you have to get a different EVF and power it if you want that camera on the shoulder and add bit to shoot raw

Cine build
Equal - C500 will be neater if you shoot raw

Movi Pro
C500 is a bit big but has raw onboard
FS9 - with the raw 'solution' you wont get it on a movi


---

How do the compressed codecs compete?

I feel exactly the opposite .. cant see anything better in the C500II than the fx9.. and it cost more and you definitely need a new EVF.. why do they build one at the rear of the camera body.. that is just plain stupid.. and they keep on doing it !! it beggars belief .. have they ever asked any working camera person about that..

 

[Liam Hall]

I just wouldn't go anywhere near a camera thats been designed with the EVF at the back.. each to their own of course .. big shame the fx9 EVF loupe is not been better designed but at least in the right place..

The FX9 lcd/loupe is higher resolution than the FS7. The C500 mkII VF is optional. I'd save that money and buy a third party option.

 

[Liam Hall]

Can anyone confirm if I'm just an idiot?

To me, one of the most exciting features of the C500ii was the 4k raw recording, downsampled from the full 6k sensor. Files sizes only a little bigger than 4k Prores, with the improved image quality of a downsampled sensor. And the ability to shoot the same 4k raw files for both full-frame and S35mm crop modes, and use the S35mm mode as an effective 1.5x teleconverter.

Reading through Canon's listed specs for the camera now, I can no longer see 4k (full sensor) raw recording listed anywhere.

Am I losing my mind? Was this a spec I simply imagined? I was certain I'd seen multiple recording format breakdowns posted that listed both 4k and 6k raw recording options for the full frame image.

Feeling very confused now.

RAW is full frame or cropped. They have supersampled full frame XAVC option in 4K, UHD and HD.

 

[Donny 123]

The FX9 lcd/loupe is higher resolution than the FS7. The C500 mkII VF is optional. I'd save that money and buy a third party option.

Yes I saw the screen Rez was higher.. just that long loupe is still a bit awkward looking.. was hoping for more of a f5/55 type LCD.. or ability,option to use them or the Venice one if you were willing to pay the money.. ..C500II optional yes.. but why still on the back of the camera .. its mad.. its just stupid in a pro video camera.. what is Canon thinking here.. they just dont get it.. should stick to stills camera,s and lens really ..

 

[Liam Hall]

..C500II optional yes.. but why still on the back of the camera .. its mad.. its just stupid in a pro video camera.. what is Canon thinking here.. they just dont get it.. should stick to stills camera,s and lens really ..

Apparently, some people like it! I used to have a C300 and never used the rear VF. On the C300 mkII it's marginally better but still largely unusable.

Easy to rig an alternate VF in the right pposition though.

 

[Donny 123]

Apparently, some people like it! I used to have a C300 and never used the rear VF. On the C300 mkII it's marginally better but still largely unusable.

Easy to rig an alternate VF in the right pposition though.

Yes true sir... I only used a c300 once.. and really barely made it through the day.. it had the ⅓ click aperture wheel think too.. nightmare .. then thy did it again .. and again

 

[dmitrizigany]

At this point the only announced FX9 RAW recorder is Atomos' 8K Neon desktop recorder-monitor line so I'm not so sure how practical RAW recording will be on the Sony but time will tell.

Raw output won’t be available until the summer. If they’re working with Atomos, I’m pretty sure they’ll time it with a new version of the Shogun...

 

[Grug]

C500II optional yes.. but why still on the back of the camera .. its mad.. its just stupid in a pro video camera.. what is Canon thinking here.. they just dont get it.. should stick to stills camera,s and lens really ..

I don’t follow you Donny. You didn’t like how Canon had their EVFs on the back of the camera - they’ve taken it off with the C500ii, and also given you the option of a proper professional EVF that mounts conventionally... They’ve literally done exactly what you wanted them too, and you still don’t think they “get it”?

 

[morgan_moore]

For rigfree work - minimal build - short shots - (typical kids videos) I think the rear EVF is quite nice and usable on the C200.

The FS5 the EVF is so small that if you push your eye against it the thing actually pokes you in the eye - not so with the C200

 

[Gary T]

Raw output won’t be available until the summer. If they’re working with Atomos, I’m pretty sure they’ll time it with a new version of the Shogun...

It would be great if there was support for the FX9 in some version of the Shogun but the only announced support is for Atomos's Neon line. The cinema5D interview below is queued to portion where Jeromy indicates that only the Neon will be recording FX9 16-bit. He also indicates it will require new MCU that he will expects will cost around $5K.

In that same interview Jeromy mentioned one of the issues with recording FX9 RAW is the data rate. This suggests that Atomos may need to capture uncompressed 16-bit RAW, because if they only needed to transfer Sony's compressed 16-bit RAW the SSDs in the Shogun line would work. Jeromy did say that if Sony wanted, Atomos could possibly create a Shogun based solution for 12 or 14 bit recording from the FX9, but he didn't indicate if that would be on the Shogun 7 or a future recorder.

I'm not trying to bash the FX9 and as I've said before I think it looks to be a great camera. I just don't think it would be wise to assume that Sony is going to make it easy to capture compressed 16-bit RAW from the FX9.

I think Sony is going to protect their digital cinema Line by making it hard to capture the FX9 RAW signal in the same way they did with the FS7. If Sony wanted to FX9 to capture their compressed 16-bit RAW format they could just enable support for their own R7 and R5 recorders. Even the FS700 can record to R5 so this seems to be deliberate omission on Sony's part to segment their profession camcorder line from their digital cinema line.

Off the back of Sony Imaging Products & Solutions Inc. (“Sony”) unveiling their ground breaking new FX9 today at IBC, Atomos is excited to announce 16bit RAW support from this new camera to the Atomos Neon 8K MCU.

https://www.atomos.com/press-releases/atomos-16bitRAW-sony-ibc2019

 

[dmitrizigany]

It would be great if there was support for the FX9 in some version of the Shogun but the only announced support is for Atomos's Neon line.

Yes, but Atomos is releasing 36 Shogun Models a year. Won’t be long before there’s a new one that can handle the 16bit output if Atomos sees there’s recorders to be sold by doing so...

 

[Grug]

Another interesting size comparison:

Sony Venice Rialto Extension Unit:

13.41cm Wide x 15.85cm High x 11.5cm Deep @ 1.9kg (with PL-mount)

Canon C500ii:

15.3cm Wide x 14.8cm High x 16.8cm Deep @ 1.7kg (probably a smidgeon more with PL-mount)

 

[Donny 123]

I don’t follow you Donny. You didn’t like how Canon had their EVFs on the back of the camera - they’ve taken it off with the C500ii, and also given you the option of a proper professional EVF that mounts conventionally... They’ve literally done exactly what you wanted them too, and you still don’t think they “get it”?

Its an optional one.. but fits on the back .. .. not sure about these measurements.. but looking at the Venice its obviously longer than it is tall.. and the c500II is patently higher than it is longer .. without any add ons.. body only..

 

[Grug]

Its an optional one.. but fits on the back .. no.. take a look at the pics on line ..

Exactly. It's optional. You can buy one and put it on the back if you like it there, or you can buy the normal one, and put it in a normal position.

They're giving you EXACTLY what you've asked for, so I don't understand the complaint.

 

[Donny 123]

For rigfree work - minimal build - short shots - (typical kids videos) I think the rear EVF is quite nice and usable on the C200.

The FS5 the EVF is so small that if you push your eye against it the thing actually pokes you in the eye - not so with the C200

Yes very short shots.. the thing is they have designed a pro video camera with a EVF at the back.. which is just never a good idea.. you are holding the weight out in front of you.. this is used as a torture method ..there its no shoulder rig that will help with tis design.. there is no camera person on earth that is wanting this.. its a very stupid design for a camera that is described as as doc camera.. they didnt have to.. but they did.. you have to wonder.. then they did again and again ..

I stand corrected .. you can put on a normal EVF .. ! still think its nuts they did it for the C300 and c300II

 

[Donny 123]

Exactly. It's optional. You can buy one and put it on the back if you like it there, or you can buy the normal one, and put it in a normal position.

They're giving you EXACTLY what you've asked for, so I don't understand the complaint.

Your right sir ! sorry ..

 

[morgan_moore]

Yes very short shots.. the thing is they have designed a pro video camera with a EVF at the back.. which is just never a good idea.. you are holding the weight out in front of you.. this is used as a torture method ..there its no shoulder rig that will help with tis design.. there is no camera person on earth that is wanting this.. its a very stupid design for a camera that is described as as doc camera.. they didnt have to.. but they did.. you have to wonder.. then they did again and again ..

I stand corrected .. you can put on a normal EVF .. ! still think its nuts they did it for the C300 and c300II

My FS7 is built usually with for shoulder work with my 'EVF' (DP502) so far forward that I risk seeing it with a wide lens. My camera is lovely on the shoulder to operate.

The NGO thing I did in zambia the camera was just way too big - it was really hard to get in and out of the rental car, shoot from the car, or be low profile in any manner and heavy with Vlock and rig.

For my second trip there I tried a different approach with the cam not supported by the shoulder: EVF and side handle and plastic 18-200 with stabilisation. And it did work. (yes 80% of the work was on sticks).

Compact build with custom monsoon cover. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bsvmq4vF967/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Prefered build? No. Useful in some situations? Absolutely.