OTHER: Sony FX5 + DZO Arcana + DZO Arles + Thypoch Simera C

F

Filippo Chiesa

Well-known member
Thanks to my friends at Adcom, using the Sony FX5, I was able to do a brief comparison between the DZO Arcana, Arles (not all focal lengths, unfortunately), and Thypooch Simera C.

These lens sets, all from the same manufacturer (DZOFILM) even though they differ from one another, are all ones I really like a lot.

I believe each of them best meets specific needs.

I didn’t use the Vespid II in this comparison, but I think they round out the lineup perfectly.


 
Thanks @Filippo Chiesa. Did you do anything to talent's face in resolve? I've seen lots of AI-esque sharpening recently with YT videos, but just wondering how much you did in post. It looks like you've applied a face effect, which is neither here nor there, just wondering if that's true?

The more accessible cinema lens space is a strange format. It's an awful purchase for traditional rental houses (a business model that could be on borrowed time itself). To rent these lenses, means you have to either get lucky and find an owner operator that dry hires with availability, or you buy them. It's not as easy as buying the 10 lens arles set and having it for the rest of your career. I imagine soon enough, it'll just get removed from the DZO website. I love the opportunity to use well built lenses with hard stops and all of the DZO lenses strike a nice balance of character vs. clean, but purchasing is quite difficult IMO.

It seems like anamorphic as a format in the online/commercial space is on its way out, with the 3:2 delivery being the latest trend.

I appreciate your tests Filippo. The Arles time and time again represent an extreme value proposition, especially with people offloading on ebay.

What differences do you find with the thypochs and arles when grading regarding contrast? Do you add more contrast with the thypochs for your matching?
 
rob norton said:
Thanks @Filippo Chiesa. Did you do anything to talent's face in resolve? I've seen lots of AI-esque sharpening recently with YT videos, but just wondering how much you did in post. It looks like you've applied a face effect, which is neither here nor there, just wondering if that's true?

The more accessible cinema lens space is a strange format. It's an awful purchase for traditional rental houses (a business model that could be on borrowed time itself). To rent these lenses, means you have to either get lucky and find an owner operator that dry hires with availability, or you buy them. It's not as easy as buying the 10 lens arles set and having it for the rest of your career. I imagine soon enough, it'll just get removed from the DZO website. I love the opportunity to use well built lenses with hard stops and all of the DZO lenses strike a nice balance of character vs. clean, but purchasing is quite difficult IMO.

It seems like anamorphic as a format in the online/commercial space is on its way out, with the 3:2 delivery being the latest trend.

I appreciate your tests Filippo. The Arles time and time again represent an extreme value proposition, especially with people offloading on ebay.

What differences do you find with the thypochs and arles when grading regarding contrast? Do you add more contrast with the thypochs for your matching?
Click to expand...
Thanks!
As for the model’s skin, I didn’t apply anything in post. It’s all thanks to Mother Nature and the makeup artist.
As for lenses, I think DZO currently has the most comprehensive selection—assuming, of course, we’re talking about products that are affordable for independent filmmakers.
In Italy, where I live, many traditional rental companies have been expanding into renting these products for some time now.
Speaking of the differences between the Simera C and Arles lenses, I can say that the Simera are much more compact and lightweight; they strike a great balance between vintage and modern aesthetics and stem from a design originally intended for photographic use. The Arles are modern primes that pay homage to high-end cinema. They’re very well balanced and share a consistent look across the line. These lenses certainly hold their own when compared to certain industry giants.
 
Filippo Chiesa said:
Thanks!
As for the model’s skin, I didn’t apply anything in post. It’s all thanks to Mother Nature and the makeup artist.
As for lenses, I think DZO currently has the most comprehensive selection—assuming, of course, we’re talking about products that are affordable for independent filmmakers.
In Italy, where I live, many traditional rental companies have been expanding into renting these products for some time now.
Speaking of the differences between the Simera C and Arles lenses, I can say that the Simera are much more compact and lightweight; they strike a great balance between vintage and modern aesthetics and stem from a design originally intended for photographic use. The Arles are modern primes that pay homage to high-end cinema. They’re very well balanced and share a consistent look across the line. These lenses certainly hold their own when compared to certain industry giants.
Click to expand...
I'm sure many rental companies feel they don't have much choice. I still don't think it's a good business model. I'd say athenas and vespid 1 onwards was a point in time where the more accessible cinema lenses became good enough, so it's still early days. I just don't see how buying all three sets of simera-Cs, vespid IIs, and arles would ever see a return for renting. You can already buy an Arles on ebay for $1200 USD if you're lucky, which means your rental rates might need to go down to stay competitive. Unless rental houses buy them, without aggressive pricing, just to entice people to step up to traditional high priced options.

Any comments about contrast?
 
Filippo Chiesa said:
My FX5 hasn't arrived yet either.
I'm lucky enough to be able to collaborate with Sony, and every now and then they lend me one of their demo units.
Click to expand...
Your videos look very "cinematic" for want of a better term. I'm very hopeful that Sony has finally given us an image with excellent color, highlight rolloff and motion cadence. I've owned the a7siii, fx3, fx30 and fx6 and while they're great cameras I could never get an image I was one hundred percent happy with. They looked a bit digital and crunchy. How would you compare the fx5's image to, say, the Alexa, Burano or Blackmagic 12k?
 
rob norton said:
I'm sure many rental companies feel they don't have much choice. I still don't think it's a good business model. I'd say athenas and vespid 1 onwards was a point in time where the more accessible cinema lenses became good enough, so it's still early days. I just don't see how buying all three sets of simera-Cs, vespid IIs, and arles would ever see a return for renting. You can already buy an Arles on ebay for $1200 USD if you're lucky, which means your rental rates might need to go down to stay competitive. Unless rental houses buy them, without aggressive pricing, just to entice people to step up to traditional high priced options.

Any comments about contrast?
Click to expand...
The Arles have better contrast than the Simera C. The more vintage character of the Simera C explains this difference.
 
scorsesefan said:
Your videos look very "cinematic" for want of a better term. I'm very hopeful that Sony has finally given us an image with excellent color, highlight rolloff and motion cadence. I've owned the a7siii, fx3, fx30 and fx6 and while they're great cameras I could never get an image I was one hundred percent happy with. They looked a bit digital and crunchy. How would you compare the fx5's image to, say, the Alexa, Burano or Blackmagic 12k?
Click to expand...
Thank you.
I think Sony has taken a huge step forward with the FX5.
In some ways, I believe it has largely cannibalized the Burano, and the image quality—especially with dual gain enabled—reminds me a lot of the “old” Alexa Mini, but with greater versatility and adaptability.
The FX5 will certainly be one of the industry benchmarks for years to come.
 
Last edited:
Filippo Chiesa said:
Thank you.
I think Sony has taken a huge step forward with the FX5.
In some ways, I believe it has largely cannibalized the Burano, and the sound quality—especially with dual gain enabled—reminds me a lot of the “old” Alexa Mini, but with greater versatility and adaptability.
The FX5 will certainly be one of the industry benchmarks for years to come.
Click to expand...
Good to hear. It's definitely a similar image to the Burano. I'm assuming you meant "image quality" not "sound quality" but the DGO is one of the reasons I'm purchasing it. I absolutely love the DGO sensor in my c70...
 
scorsesefan said:
Good to hear. It's definitely a similar image to the Burano. I'm assuming you meant "image quality" not "sound quality" but the DGO is one of the reasons I'm purchasing it. I absolutely love the DGO sensor in my c70...
Click to expand...
Yes, please forgive the mistake.
I was referring specifically to image quality (I’ve corrected my previous comment).
The true 14 stops of dynamic range and the ability to record in X-OCN directly in-camera literally change the game.
At this price, I don’t think you can buy anything better right now.
 
Filippo Chiesa said:
Yes, please forgive the mistake.
I was referring specifically to image quality (I’ve corrected my previous comment).
The true 14 stops of dynamic range and the ability to record in X-OCN directly in-camera literally change the game.
At this price, I don’t think you can buy anything better right now.
Click to expand...
Even the BM cinema camera 6k looks as good as anything from the fx5. Moving up, other than lowlight, the pyxis 12k has an objectively better image than the fx5. Buying accessories from scratch makes BM a more expensive overall package, but the body itself is cheaper. The fx5 will for sure become an extremely popular camera in high demand and I'd love to get one at some point. But even the worst camera on the market is currently better than the fx5 since you can't own one yet. The appeal for me with the fx5 is less hardware vs. a lidar system, it'll be in demand as other people reach out asking what camera you have, and one of the biggest strengths of a mirrorless body with best in class autofocus is the telephoto options, which become cumbersome as a one person band using PL lenses. BM are trying to improve AF that Sony's been best at for years, while Sony have focussed on IQ that's come easily for BM. Neither camera is the best across all categories.
 
rob norton said:
Even the BM cinema camera 6k looks as good as anything from the fx5. Moving up, other than lowlight, the pyxis 12k has an objectively better image than the fx5. Buying accessories from scratch makes BM a more expensive overall package, but the body itself is cheaper. The fx5 will for sure become an extremely popular camera in high demand and I'd love to get one at some point. But even the worst camera on the market is currently better than the fx5 since you can't own one yet. The appeal for me with the fx5 is less hardware vs. a lidar system, it'll be in demand as other people reach out asking what camera you have, and one of the biggest strengths of a mirrorless body with best in class autofocus is the telephoto options, which become cumbersome as a one person band using PL lenses. BM are trying to improve AF that Sony's been best at for years, while Sony have focussed on IQ that's come easily for BM. Neither camera is the best across all categories.
Click to expand...
Image-wise the Blackmagic cameras are on par or even better than the fx5, but for my type of work (one man band run and gun doc) all of the BM cameras are non-starters for obvious reasons.
 
scorsesefan said:
Image-wise the Blackmagic cameras are on par or even better than the fx5, but for my type of work (one man band run and gun doc) all of the BM cameras are non-starters for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
I was responding to Filippo, I know how you feel about the cameras for that type of work!

I think it's just back to the question of comfort during the process vs net benefit, and where you land. The biggest adjustment using the pyxis 6k from the c200 was using manual lenses and ND. Like a RED though, once it's actually up and running, it feels like it completely stays out of the way. I don't often use more than two channels of audio, but I don't think many solo shooters need more than two channels. Historically I'm torn, having been so sensible using the Canon c200, but now, as a commercial service at least, it feels like pretty pictures are more important than the actual project. This is a devastating reality in a way. I'm hoping I can pick up the Arles zooms and at this point in time believe Arles 25-75/pyxis 6k is overall putting me in a better position than a sony 24-70 and fx6. But if someone called and said you can work on this project if you own an fx5, I'd buy instantly.

I think we're on the same page in that there's no brand loyalty. @NorBro is an OG of talking about the cameras honestly! I'd definitely like to own some of the latest sony tech, it'd be cool to have a cabinet with fuji/sony/blackmagic, then you grab and go as needed, but most of us need fewer tools to do more things.
 
rob norton said:
I was responding to Filippo, I know how you feel about the cameras for that type of work!

I think it's just back to the question of comfort during the process vs net benefit, and where you land. The biggest adjustment using the pyxis 6k from the c200 was using manual lenses and ND. Like a RED though, once it's actually up and running, it feels like it completely stays out of the way. I don't often use more than two channels of audio, but I don't think many solo shooters need more than two channels. Historically I'm torn, having been so sensible using the Canon c200, but now, as a commercial service at least, it feels like pretty pictures are more important than the actual project. This is a devastating reality in a way. I'm hoping I can pick up the Arles zooms and at this point in time believe Arles 25-75/pyxis 6k is overall putting me in a better position than a sony 24-70 and fx6. But if someone called and said you can work on this project if you own an fx5, I'd buy instantly.

I think we're on the same page in that there's no brand loyalty. @NorBro is an OG of talking about the cameras honestly! I'd definitely like to own some of the latest sony tech, it'd be cool to have a cabinet with fuji/sony/blackmagic, then you grab and go as needed, but most of us need fewer tools to do more things.
Click to expand...
The nature of my work requires me to use all kinds of cameras. As for my personal gear, I currently prefer Sony for a whole host of good reasons. In general, most cameras today are capable of producing excellent results, but I believe the FX5 has something extra to offer compared to cameras in the same price range. Looking at the final image, in fact, doesn’t tell the whole story. How you achieve that result, I believe, is the key—and in this regard, the FX5, compared to other cameras (like the ones you mentioned), makes all the difference. With this camera, I think Sony has taken another significant step forward—a step I’d dare to call “bold,” since I believe the FX5 is perfectly capable of giving much more expensive cameras a run for their money. It’s hard to grasp without trying it out, but when and if you do, you’ll better understand what would be difficult to explain in words. Even the colorist I usually work with was left speechless, for a whole host of reasons (dynamic range, colorimetry, workability, and file quality, etc.).
 
Sure enough...

"Sony’s FX5 camera sets a new benchmark in our standardized CineD Lab Test for full-frame cameras. Rolling shutter values are superb (with dual gain set to “OFF”), and still very manageable when DG is set to “ON”. Dynamic range is in a similar league to our top contender so far, the ARRI ALEXA Mini LF, and this observation is confirmed in the exposure latitude tests.
Part of the superb results is the new internal X-OCN LT RAW codec. All of that in a consumer price bracket! Wow – well done, Sony!"

www.cined.com

Sony FX5 Lab Test: Rolling Shutter, Dynamic Range and Exposure Latitude | CineD

CineD lab test of the Sony FX5: Rolling Shutter, Dynamic Range and Exposure Latitude for X-OCN LT and XAVC S-I.
www.cined.com www.cined.com
 
Filippo Chiesa said:
The nature of my work requires me to use all kinds of cameras. As for my personal gear, I currently prefer Sony for a whole host of good reasons. In general, most cameras today are capable of producing excellent results, but I believe the FX5 has something extra to offer compared to cameras in the same price range. Looking at the final image, in fact, doesn’t tell the whole story. How you achieve that result, I believe, is the key—and in this regard, the FX5, compared to other cameras (like the ones you mentioned), makes all the difference. With this camera, I think Sony has taken another significant step forward—a step I’d dare to call “bold,” since I believe the FX5 is perfectly capable of giving much more expensive cameras a run for their money. It’s hard to grasp without trying it out, but when and if you do, you’ll better understand what would be difficult to explain in words. Even the colorist I usually work with was left speechless, for a whole host of reasons (dynamic range, colorimetry, workability, and file quality, etc.).
Click to expand...
To me, if the sony lets you get shots the BM can't, which in turn makes for a stronger project, then that's the tool to use. Inversely, if you're after the best absolute IQ and can get by with BM usability shortcomings, then there's no question BM is the better option. It's much of muchness at the viewer level, but in discussing the tools with people we're collaborating with, I try to avoid all brand loyalty, which gives clarity in our communication. I'll report back about the fx5 when I can!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top