FS7: Sony FS7 detailed review - well done

Wish I could see the differences between the two modes, custom slog and cine IE. So much posts, talking and writing.
My brain is not capable to absorb all the information about these two modes, I think my eyes can. But where are these images, sites, youtube, vimeo, links, stills etc, any suggestions?
I'd like to see and believe.
 
Publimix said:
Wish I could see the differences between the two modes, custom slog and cine IE.
Click to expand...

There is a 5% difference in colour - dennis (starcentral) had it on a blog.

Honestly losing that 5% colour acccuracy is far out weighed by gaining click WB, 8000 ISO etc.

(for many situations)

S
 
Hi Sam, thanks for your answer. But how does 5% color accuracy look?

When I see the review of Philip Bloom (Custom) and read the link Dennis Hingsberg showed above (Cine IE) I am even more confused.

In the late eighties I wrote for a video magazine and was blown away by the then-new-HD projectors and camera's. Words and descriptions didn't prepare me for that 'seeing is believing experience'.
I am aware that I am totally new to slog, luts and color grading, all I know about it comes from people who write on this forum. Bought all their books, pdf's and vimeo tutorials. Read so much that my brain hurts (Monty Python).
Still, after reading all these post I didn't find a source with actual footage or images were these settings are compared.
And that is surprising because this forum is about images and people making images.

So who can help me with links to magazine or sites, blogs, links with Custom/cine IE pictures?

Peter Bosman
 
Last edited:
YOu have the camera?

set a scene - with some colours and maube a test card shoot it on EI and custom slog3 matrix off - judge for yourself!
 
I'd say its more than 5% difference if you use Sony's sets of LC709A LUTs… why are they so different if the LUTs come for each color mode?

custommode-slog2sgamutMatrixOff_zpsnn9num8r.jpg


cineEI-slog3sgamut3cine_zps2cfirztt.jpg


Art Adams shot "real life" scenes and provided examples published by DVinfo here: http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/sony_sgamut_vs_sgamut3.html

I know, I know, everyone is tired of my charts already.
 
Thank you Dennis, Sam, this is what I was looking for. Now I understand, and see the differences. When I shoot in Custom mode I don't like the Sony Lut, 'too much color.'
But when I use the Alexacustom709? Lut on the same footage it is a lot better. That makes me think there has to be a Lut that has the same effect and compensates the difference between the two modes and has the benefits of custom.
Or am I wrong? And is it not possible to replicate the same colors in Custom as in Cine IE just by using another LUT.
 
I'm a monumental pedant so lets be clear about what we're comparing when we say Custom vs CineEI.

What we are really comparing are the gamuts, the Sgamut3 of Custom mode and most likely the SGamut3.cine that people tend to choose when in CineEI. There won't be a dicky birds difference between the two camera modes if SGamut3 is used in CineEI mode apart from WB differences in the system. I'm taking as read we're using SLog3 in each mode.

Dennis I never tire of charts especially ones that show so conclusively how much better Sgamut3.cine is. I don't know you can put a % figure on the colour difference, I'm sure I could say 95% and justify it because practically everything looks better with SGamut3.cine.

Out the back of my office are rows of red brick buildings then a sports field and I've never seen the buildings and grass looking so spot on straight out of the camera with SGamut3.cine.
 
Thanks Nirv,

So Custom with Sgamut3.cine would be the same?
And with the next hack or firmware update we can have this choice in custom?

thanks a lot
Peter Bosman
 
Publimix said:
Thanks Nirv,

So Custom with Sgamut3.cine would be the same?
And with the next hack or firmware update we can have this choice in custom?

thanks a lot
Peter Bosman
Click to expand...

If you shoot with the same gamuts in Custom as CineEI the only difference to the colours will come via WB differences.

Dennis says Sony have confirmed to him that SGamut3.cine will never be available in Custom mode. Which is a shame.
 
So let me get this straight, if the difference between custom and cine IE is the use of this Gamut and Sony doesn't make it available in custom, than these 'Two camera's in one body' is pure marketing rimram. And then we need a hacker to correct this.

Or am I opening a pandora box now?
 
Publimix said:
So let me get this straight, if the difference between custom and cine IE is the use of this Gamut and Sony doesn't make it available in custom, than these 'Two camera's in one body' is pure marketing rimram. And then we need a hacker to correct this.

Or am I opening a pandora box now?
Click to expand...

Custom uses SGamut3, in CineEI you have a choice of SGamut with SLog2, SGamut3 and SGamut3.cine with SLog3.

In custom mode the camera works like a large chip video camera with WB, paint, and crisping etc etc in CineEI it's a very basic camera with a lot of the gizmos turned off but with much better colour gamut options. It's best to read up on the CineEI mode asI'd only do a poor job of explaining the digital cine side.

I prefer shooting CineEI because of the .cine gamut and I'm able to use viewfinder LUTs when shooting SLog3. I'm happy to expose off zebras at the moment but hope Sony allow waveforms with LUTs in CineEI in the next firmware revision. My gut instinct says they won't though...
 
Im a littl suspicious of 'gamut is all'

Gamut is the range colours the camera can record.

Both Gamuts are way beyond the Gamut of a 709 monitor.

So we are talking about colours that we cannot deliver anyway.

now in post we use a LUT to move the non showable colours to a place where they can be shown

but Sony dont give out a LUT to move SG3 to 709 so we use the SG t0 709 and there is a bit of a mismatch.

Clearly that could be corrected with a more appropriate LUT, building same, however, could be complex.

S
 
Publim..

I think I would summarise the options for using the camera thus..

1)Custom/Standard/Hyepergamma.
'Paint' the camera to acheive a look close to the final output.
pros.
simple post
monitor works in all modes
any ISO
any WB
cons..
limited DR, 'sony look'
hard to 'paint' the camera so it looks nice

2) EI
Shoot EI, add a LUT in post to get great colour and DR.
Pros.
Great colour DR.
Cons.
Colour must be done in post.
Limited to 1000ISO (or 2000 depending on taste)
LUTs are not consistent on onboard monitor
WB has only three settings, this will add complexity to post as wb will need to be neutalised as well as adding lut
Need a seperate monitor with Lut support for best results

3) CustomSlog
Shoot Custom Slog3 add a LUT in post to get (nearly) great colour and DR
Pros
Nearly Great colour and DR
full access to NR, WB and ISO - good up to 8000
Cons
Colour must be done in post.
No lut support with onboard monitor
LUTs are designed for SG3.cine, you will be shooting SG3.. sony luts are not perfect
Need a seperate monitor with Lut support for best results

4) EI - burn lut to camera..
Pros
Nice smooth file burned to camera if you choose the right LUT and nail exposure.
Cons
1000ISO,
no WB control (without special LUT)
no NR

--
Personally Id suggest 2 for controlled shooting, 3 for varying light.

S
 
Thanks a lot, I mostly work outdoor in Dutch weather, (fast changing light) I'll stick to the custom slog mode.

Peter Bosman
 
Hi Morgan,
I already do that, I am doing a project involving 4 different camera's (FS7 Gopro, DJI 3 and Lumix) so post color correcting is inevitable. An extra recording mode won't make much difference.

(And in the end the new generation views it all on laptops, tablets and phones etc. So why bother anyway?)

Peter Bosman
 
Nirv said:
Custom uses SGamut3, in CineEI you have a choice of SGamut with SLog2, SGamut3 and SGamut3.cine with SLog3.
Click to expand...

^

There is absolutely no Sgamut3 in Custom mode. In custom mode you ONLY have the original Sony gamut called "S-Gamut" (there is no 3 at the end)

In CineEI mode you have "S-Gamut/slog2" which will not match "S-Gamut/slog2" in Custom mode oddly. And in CineEI mode you also have the two other color spaces; S-Gamut3 and S-Gamut3.cine
 
Publimix said:
Thank you Dennis, Sam, this is what I was looking for. Now I understand, and see the differences. When I shoot in Custom mode I don't like the Sony Lut, 'too much color.'
But when I use the Alexacustom709? Lut on the same footage it is a lot better. That makes me think there has to be a Lut that has the same effect and compensates the difference between the two modes and has the benefits of custom.
Or am I wrong? And is it not possible to replicate the same colors in Custom as in Cine IE just by using another LUT.
Click to expand...

I also like the ARRI to REC709 LUT and have used it on a few projects in post.

As for replicating the EXACT SAME colours in CineEI mode and Custom mode - I would say "yes" it is possible but it would take a bit of work, I would say also say the two don't grade the same (one plays nicer than the other one) so it could be more difficult to match once you start grading. No LUT will fix this or make it easy.

Sony did this to remain backwards compatibility with previous gen cameras. Then CineEI mode was made with a POST ONLY approach in mind.

Fine Sony did what they did but I don't agree with either of these scenarios.
 
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