Sony finally joins DSLR video

[kgimedia]

I got to the end of the thread and wanted to talk tech and spec, but I just remembered a box of Minolta glass that I stopped hoarding and trashed about 12 years ago. My Leica's sold, Canon sold, Nikon sold, Minolta trashed.

Maybe 12-14 lenses in a copy paper box on the street could be the mother load of the next HDSLR (hate that term) iteration. This kind of new tech loop might spin my wheels for days. Have fun boy's and here's to hoping the camera is decent.

 

[SteB]

Just to show I am not being too serious about this, someone on a Dpreview forum pointed out this very funny PR blunder. Not very clever when you are only displaying mock-ups and not giving any specs, although it's certainly good for a chuckle.

 

[Steve Castle]

I'd actually say that these cameras are very close to production. First off, its been announced that it will be released within 2010, from a product development perspective there is no way a camera goes from an early 'concept' to a final product on the shelves within 9 months if that camera isn't close to being finished. Also, lets consider Sony has a history of showing near-production ready 'concepts'; for instance, at the 2008 PMA their unnamed 'flagship concept' became the Alpha 900 by September of that year.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013109sonypma.asp

I would think 1080p is a given considering the competition that an A700-successor would be up against, and given the fact that in their presentation it clearly says so.

Let's also consider that Sony makes the sensors for other video capable dSLRs like the Nikon, but have always regarded dSLR video capability to be inferior in quality until now. They've said in the past, that Alpha's will have video when it at least matches the functionality of their Handycams. Meaning that we should expect AF during video and an acceptable level of rolling-shutter artifact:

Currently none of the video-equipped dSLRs in the market can offer an intuitive autofocus (AF) function (you have to press a button to engage AF while recording), and this is a challenge for Sony. Katsumoto told CNET Asia the company's Handycam camcorders have long established themselves with consumers. If the firm should decide to make a dSLR with movie capture feature, it will want to make this as good as its Handycam.

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2009/06/12/sony-video-recording-will-be-a-necessity-in-dslrs/

Their m43rds rival is interesting to me. Judging by pictures, the focal-flange-distance (FFD) would likely be shorter then an M-mount; meaning that most lenses can also be mounted via adapter. It should do 1080p as well since it shares sensors according to the press release, and In-body Image stabilization has been pretty ubiquitous with Sony Alphas, so there is a possibility that these new "ultra-compact interchangeable lens cameras" will have them as well (in at least one iteration or other).

Either way, considering their history, Sony should take video quite a bit more seriously then many other companies making dSLRs. Ultimately, being that Sony is Nikon's primary sensor supplier, this A700-successor should have the same sensor as Nikon's future D400 just the way the A700 and D300 share the IMX sensor.

 

[Steve Castle]

David Kilpatrick at Photoclub Alpha has a analysis of the cameras:

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2010/02/22/the-tortoise-and-the-hares/

Sony’s use of the AVCHD format is much publicised. So what? It doesn’t say it is the Lite flavour, so that means the camera is probably 1080p and that the files as saved to the memory card will be easily read via the card slots of Sony devices such as Bravia televisions or PlayStation, or played from the camera’s USB connection. It also means that some computer systems and portable players, digital photo frames or PDAs may need the video converting before they can play it.
Sony has almost certainly made sure the format shoots 1080/24p, the industry standard. But I think they have done much more than this. I think the A7xx will be the first video DSLR which allows you to capture a still frame while recording unbroken video, and to do so without a shutter actuation. It may be nothing more than a 1080p JPEG still, extracted and saved in real time (Nikon allow saving of 720p JPEGs by reviewing the footage and selecting frames, in-camera, on the D3S).
But I think Sony’s recent experiments with auto image alignment (in the two-shot HDR function of the Alpha 550, etc) are a clue to what they may do to create higher resolution JPEGs than 1080p, without interrupting video recording. A software utility which can re-mosaic and conflate two or more video frames is already available:
http://photoacute.com/studio/guide/guide.html#video_import
I’m already using this software to create double resolution images from my A550 raw files – incredible 55 megapixel landscape and still-subject shots made using a set of exposures, with SSS switched on even on a tripod to ensure that each raw records the data slightly offset on the Bayer grid. The report on this will be in the Spring Photoworld magazine.

 

[morgan_moore]

If I remember correclty the 21mp sony came out shortly before the (24mp?) D3x

A bit like SonNikon have a deal

Mine will be cheaper - yours gets an extra 5% on the spec

We still dont see eveidence of proper commitment to a DSLR video camera - that will have XLR in for a start and buit in ND

S

 

[roxics]

If I remember correclty the 21mp sony came out shortly before the (24mp?) D3x

A bit like SonNikon have a deal

Mine will be cheaper - yours gets an extra 5% on the spec

We still dont see eveidence of proper commitment to a DSLR video camera - that will have XLR in for a start and buit in ND

S

You're not going to get XLR on a DSLR. I think the best we might be able to hope for is some kind of wireless audio.

 

[ChipG]

Just to show I am not being too serious about this, someone on a Dpreview forum pointed out this very funny PR blunder. Not very clever when you are only displaying mock-ups and not giving any specs, although it's certainly good for a chuckle.

Sony has more PR blunders, when they were marketing their Peta byte storage rack they called it the Peta File.

 

[SteB]

If I remember correclty the 21mp sony came out shortly before the (24mp?) D3x

A bit like SonNikon have a deal

Mine will be cheaper - yours gets an extra 5% on the spec

We still dont see eveidence of proper commitment to a DSLR video camera - that will have XLR in for a start and buit in ND

S

The Sony A900 was I think 24mp too and it shares a very similar sensor to the D3x. I don't know much about video or the video equipment market. However, I very much doubt we will see too many specialist video features on mainly stills cameras such as XLR connections. The way the market for these cameras works is that they sell in very large numbers with features to appeal to most. So I think features will be confined to those that appeal to most of their buyers, whether stills pros, enthusiasts or joe public. I think much better video processing will be possible once they start designing more video capable image processors and sensors. The one's at present were really just designed for live view.

However, I don't see why it should not be possible for a stills camera to be provided with a port that connects to an add on module with the specialist video features not on the camera itself. I half expected this with the Canon 1D mkIV. This would allow the manufacturers to charge for these features, and yet the stills cameras would not be weighed down with them. It would only require the connectivity as all the supporting hardware etc, could be on the add on module - even extra processing power. I think the big Japanese stills camera companies are very insular and don't respond at all well to market requirements. Thom Hogan who is basically Mr Nikon and who writes all the popular guides to the Nikon DSLRs often comments on how it is basically impossible to contact a real person in Nikon who will listen or respond to suggestions.

For instance I am baffled as to why manufacturers like Canon don't provide accessories like LCD loupes. After all it would not be difficult for a huge optics manufacturer like Canon to fabricate them. It is great for companies like Zacuto, but puzzling why a company like Canon can't provide something so essential for using their DSLRs as video cameras.

 

[Steve Castle]

The Sony A900 was I think 24mp too and it shares a very similar sensor to the D3x. I don't know much about video or the video equipment market. However, I very much doubt we will see too many specialist video features on mainly stills cameras such as XLR connections. The way the market for these cameras works is that they sell in very large numbers with features to appeal to most. So I think features will be confined to those that appeal to most of their buyers, whether stills pros, enthusiasts or joe public. I think much better video processing will be possible once they start designing more video capable image processors and sensors. The one's at present were really just designed for live view.

However, I don't see why it should not be possible for a stills camera to be provided with a port that connects to an add on module with the specialist video features not on the camera itself. I half expected this with the Canon 1D mkIV. This would allow the manufacturers to charge for these features, and yet the stills cameras would not be weighed down with them. It would only require the connectivity as all the supporting hardware etc, could be on the add on module - even extra processing power. I think the big Japanese stills camera companies are very insular and don't respond at all well to market requirements. Thom Hogan who is basically Mr Nikon and who writes all the popular guides to the Nikon DSLRs often comments on how it is basically impossible to contact a real person in Nikon who will listen or respond to suggestions.

For instance I am baffled as to why manufacturers like Canon don't provide accessories like LCD loupes. After all it would not be difficult for a huge optics manufacturer like Canon to fabricate them. It is great for companies like Zacuto, but puzzling why a company like Canon can't provide something so essential for using their DSLRs as video cameras.

Canon and Nikon are excellent with their professional support. They are ever present at any major news or sporting event, and they do listen to customer input, especially if you are part of CPS or NPS. Whether they actually apply your suggestions is another issue entirely, but I also have a dozen comments about my iPhone and I really doubt Apple cares as well.

The reality is if you allow the customer to design a product it ends up having every feature imaginable and costs close to nothing, or it ends up looking like that car that Homer Simpson designed.

dSLRs are designed primarily for users who focus on stills, video has its own segment of the market. The real question for actually building a product is are there enough customers to justify building it, or can other products be produced with the same amount of resources that would be a better use of our investments?

The answer may be that Sony may have a good niche. Its hard to compete with Canikon at their own game, maybe a full video-centric dSLR with all the necessary inputs/outputs is something Sony can differentiate itself with? Maybe it'll bring more people to its system? The A850 is an excellent niche as well. Its a full-frame 24MP camera that is $2k (with essentially the same sensor as the $8k D3x). Its a great deal, maybe they can take equally dynamic moves with their A700-sucessor?

 

[SteB]

Canon and Nikon are excellent with their professional support. They are ever present at any major news or sporting event, and they do listen to customer input, especially if you are part of CPS or NPS. Whether they actually apply your suggestions is another issue entirely, but I also have a dozen comments about my iPhone and I really doubt Apple cares as well.

I am well aware of the professionally supported photographers because I know some (I'm not one), and I understand how this works. It is variable in what is listened to. Just take the infamous Canon 1D mkIII AF issues, and I doubt there are many top pros who would not dearly love a long needed update to the IS in keystone lenses like the 300mm f2.8 L IS. Nor am I am talking about your typical photo forum bore designing cameras ala Homer Simpson style. Likewise the scale of economy type thing is important for features that may appear on stills cameras i.e. these features are only cheap because they sell cameras in huge numbers.

The main group the camera manufacturers listen to are the big media organizations who make bulk purchases of pro-equipment from Canon and Nikon - this is how video ended up in the 5D mkII for photo-journalists. However, their specific needs are not necessarily representative of even the majority of top pros, let alone the rest.

Take the LCD loupe issue I mentioned. It is an obvious need when using a DSLR for video as you have no viewfinder. Their design is hardly rocket science and it is just fabricating the housing and the optics are borrowed from light box loupes. Canon "could" have probably designed and fabricated these with less effort than it took to design the box the DSLR comes in. The mount for them could easily be integrated into the LCD frame, with no need for stick on accessories. They appear to be selling like hot cakes and so their design and fabrication would be self-financing. Oddly though Canon have a sort of a blind spot and cannot see either the need for them or the opportunity - great for Zacuto et al - but a bit of an oversight. Little touches like this make all the difference and they would not be idiosynchratic Homer Simpson designs.

 

[Steve Castle]

I am well aware of the professionally supported photographers because I know some (I'm not one), and I understand how this works. It is variable in what is listened to. Just take the infamous Canon 1D mkIII AF issues, and I doubt there are many top pros who would not dearly love a long needed update to the IS in keystone lenses like the 300mm f2.8 L IS. Nor am I am talking about your typical photo forum bore designing cameras ala Homer Simpson style. Likewise the scale of economy type thing is important for features that may appear on stills cameras i.e. these features are only cheap because they sell cameras in huge numbers.

The main group the camera manufacturers listen to are the big media organizations who make bulk purchases of pro-equipment from Canon and Nikon - this is how video ended up in the 5D mkII for photo-journalists. However, their specific needs are not necessarily representative of even the majority of top pros, let alone the rest.

Take the LCD loupe issue I mentioned. It is an obvious need when using a DSLR for video as you have no viewfinder. Their design is hardly rocket science and it is just fabricating the housing and the optics are borrowed from light box loupes. Canon "could" have probably designed and fabricated these with less effort than it took to design the box the DSLR comes in. The mount for them could easily be integrated into the LCD frame, with no need for stick on accessories. They appear to be selling like hot cakes and so their design and fabrication would be self-financing. Oddly though Canon have a sort of a blind spot and cannot see either the need for them or the opportunity - great for Zacuto et al - but a bit of an oversight. Little touches like this make all the difference and they would not be idiosynchratic Homer Simpson designs.

Thing is, you want an LCD loupe, the next person wants XLR inputs, the next wants built-in GPS, another wants wireless shooting capability buit in, another wants something more than their crappy 9-point AF in the 5DII, another wants more megapixels, and the next wants less. Online everybody has a request, capturing an image is always a battle with limitations, and soon you have a dozen cupholders and Homer Simpson design if you listen to everybody.

1DIII AF issue you mentioned is a prime example of how these companies listen to their consumers (look at the fixes implemented, look at the 1DIV AF) and the lenses like the 300mm f2.8 L IS will be updated in time, but they've updated a more requested update to their 70-200mm f/2.8L ISII USM just last month.

Also the 5DII isn't considered a professional camera by Canon, neither for stills or video, and is not eligible for Canon Processional Services if you don't have 1D/1Ds. Canon is perfectly happy letting Zacuto make accessories, if and when Canon makes a full-frame video camera then it will have no-compromises design for video. But the 5DII as is stands, is, and always has been, a Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

[SteB]

Thing is, you want an LCD loupe, the next person wants XLR inputs, the next wants built-in GPS, another wants wireless shooting capability buit in, another wants something more than their crappy 9-point AF in the 5DII, another wants more megapixels, and the next wants less. Online everybody has a request, capturing an image is always a battle with limitations, and soon you have a dozen cupholders and Homer Simpson design if you listen to everybody.

1DIII AF issue you mentioned is a prime example of how these companies listen to their consumers (look at the fixes implemented, look at the 1DIV AF) and the lenses like the 300mm f2.8 L IS will be updated in time, but they've updated a more requested update to their 70-200mm f/2.8L ISII USM just last month.

Also the 5DII isn't considered a professional camera by Canon, neither for stills or video, and is not eligible for Canon Processional Services if you don't have 1D/1Ds. Canon is perfectly happy letting Zacuto make accessories, if and when Canon makes a full-frame video camera then it will have no-compromises design for video. But the 5DII as is stands, is, and always has been, a Jack of all trades, master of none.

I'm not trying to argue with you but I think that there is a difference between something like an LCD loupe and some of the other things mentioned. You'll note that I didn't say that I wanted an LCD loupe from Canon, merely that this is the type of easy to provide fix for a problem that could be added as an accessory and pay for itself. For use as a video cam a loupe becomes nearly essential without either an EVF or external monitor. Also as you are well aware wireless capability and GPS are available through add on modules for some Canon DSLRs. In addition, I did not say that the 5D mkII was classed as a pro-DSLR by Canon, and it was Tim Smith of Canon that said the video had been added to the 5D mkII at the request of one of the big media groups, I think maybe Reuters if I remember rightly. I could also point you to a huge amount of dissatisfaction from pros about Canon's response to the 1D mkIII AF issues.

 

[Steve Castle]

I'm not trying to argue with you but I think that there is a difference between something like an LCD loupe and some of the other things mentioned. You'll note that I didn't say that I wanted an LCD loupe from Canon, merely that this is the type of easy to provide fix for a problem that could be added as an accessory and pay for itself. For use as a video cam a loupe becomes nearly essential without either an EVF or external monitor. Also as you are well aware wireless capability and GPS are available through add on modules for some Canon DSLRs. In addition, I did not say that the 5D mkII was classed as a pro-DSLR by Canon, and it was Tim Smith of Canon that said the video had been added to the 5D mkII at the request of one of the big media groups, I think maybe Reuters if I remember rightly. I could also point you to a huge amount of dissatisfaction from pros about Canon's response to the 1D mkIII AF issues.

There is a laundry list of things that the 5DII needs to be improved on. First and foremost is that spot meter isn't even linked to any of the 8 outer focusing points, probably the thing that gets complained about the most about the camera, and is something every other camera made can do including the Rebels.

I've actually used the 1D MkIII, the AF issue is comparatively minor outside of limited set of conditions, overall the AF in that camera is excellent.. However, AF is absolutely crucial to the functionality of that camera, and its a piece of equipment that people depend their livelihoods on and pay the price for that. Any slight against it is important, and let's consider that Canon has fixed it, and the AF in the 1D MkIV is completely new and dramatically improved. As an example of customer response, they did listen.

I understand that an LCD loupe would improve the functionality of the 5DII for some users, but while it may be used limitedly by some professionals, it really isn't within the scope of what the camera was designed for. The 5D has always been a severely compromised camera. Perhaps, Canon will release "1Dv Mark IV", or something, in the future that is truly video-centric and have all the necessary features.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

I think everyone knows I'm no fan of Sony. But -- man, they could do this right. I don't know if the Alpha mount is as adaptable as some others, but in-body stabilization is a huge advantage, and Zeiss makes their ZA lenses in direct Alpha mount (including a nice 135mm that you can't get in ZF mount). If they've solved the moire/aliasing issues, and they provide 24pN, I will fling my 7D against the wall and kick it down the street in ten seconds flat to go with an Alpha.

So yeah, let's see what they actually deliver. But it's definitely interesting.

True 1080 (resolved) super35 with no moire and a reasonable codec (as good as EX, say)? I'd pay 10K and have no regrets.

 

[Barry_Green]

Me too. Which is why I have my eye on the Scarlet S35 or whatever else comes along that meets those specs.

 

[GoodLuck]

Will society still use monetary currency in this future world where the Scarlet exists?

rogar-Happy(DBG):

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Will society still use monetary currency in this future world where the Scarlet exists?

That's funny... We may, however, be very pleasantly surprised by Sony's offering. Remember, the GH1 would have been quite usable if it had a good codec. It already is semi-OK (mediocre rather than simply horrible like the Canons) in whatever method it uses to downscale images to 1080p, and we see this when the codec is not crapping out. It's not like the affordable tech is miles away.

 

[stip]

first sample footage of Sony's upcoming mirrorless Exmor APS HD CMOS / AVCHD 1080p cameras


http://www.sony.jp/dslr/info2/20100222.html

Hard to tell anything, reminds me of the somehow poorly executed and compressed first sample footages seen on Panasonic's site before releasing GH1 back then.

 

[Chris Watson]

Boy, if that's actually from the camera, that's bad. Over exposed, out of focus, poorly composed shots. I kind of dig the style but for a show reel on the new capabilities of the Sony DSLR, it's a strike out.

 

[raymondluo]

Sony taking inspiration from RED? They can make an advertisement about their product even before they have pictures of the actual cameras, not renders.