Sony F3 with Hyperdeck Shuttle 2:3 pulldown help

F

FilmDude

Well-known member
Hello, I am not new to this forum, I just have a new account now... Its good to see you guys again.

Anyway got a big question that needs some help:

I have my Sony F3 and newly arrived Hyperdeck shuttle. The Hyperdeck is notorious for having 0 detailed information about it from the company or any other website for that matter... So I wanted to see if any of you on here own one and can confirm some things for me. PS I do have the hyperdeck but my SSDs didnt arrive yet, which is why i'm asking instead of testing...

1- Does the Hyperdeck Shuttle do an internal 2:3 pulldown when connected to an F3's HD-SDI ? (NOT using the hdmi)

2- Does the Hyperdeck Shuttle auto recognize that its a 23.98p signal over the 60i and actually record 23.98 instead?

3- If not, does that mean that the 60i footage end up taking much more space than 23.98 footage would, or is there something else I'm missing?

4- The F3 gives you two flavors out of the HD-SDI 1080 60i (needing pulldown) or 1080 Psf. Will Psf be a lower quality than the other? Its been a while since I even thought about Psf, but for some reason I remember noticing a difference in quality between the two.

5- Does recording 1080Psf to the Hyperdeck have any advantages even if there is an internal 2:3 pulldown?


Lots of questions, but I hope someone who already owns a setup similar can help. Thanks a bunch guys!
 
Thanks, unfortunately none of that relates to the Hyperdeck Shuttle which is what I'm using and very different from the gemini or other options. Anyone else have Hyperdeck information?
 
I have aShuttle but am out all day. Ill post a detailed response late afternoon when i get back home/studio and have unit in front of unit.
 
Also in the mean time, I've been looking ALL over the Internet trying to get a SIMPLE explanation of the quality/space difference is between 1080PsF23.98 and 1080p23.98 (requiring pulldown)

I understand the hard data, but trying to get more of a difference in what the feel is, is there a slightly different gitter feeling? is one interlaced cheated to look like progressive? Its been a while since I've had to look up this stuff so I'm rusty. I've always just worked in 1080p23.98 on internal SxS cards (by the way is what goes on the cards actually Psf, or 59i that needs pulldown?)
 
I don't have a Shuttle, but can answer some of these

FilmDude said:
3- If not, does that mean that the 60i footage end up taking much more space than 23.98 footage would, or is there something else I'm missing?
Click to expand...

29.97i (aka 60i) would take 25% more space than 24p

FilmDude said:
4- The F3 gives you two flavors out of the HD-SDI 1080 60i (needing pulldown) or 1080 Psf. Will Psf be a lower quality than the other? Its been a while since I even thought about Psf, but for some reason I remember noticing a difference in quality between the two.
Click to expand...

Simple answer, 23.98PsF will be higher quality. Long answer is, in an uncompressed situation, they should be the same. In a compressed situation, the 29.97 interlaced could possibly look worse, and the 23.98 look better.

FilmDude said:
5- Does recording 1080Psf to the Hyperdeck have any advantages even if there is an internal 2:3 pulldown?
Click to expand...

Not sure what this question means really, since if you're recording PsF, pulldown isn't involved.

I'll sum all this up with a recommendation. Run the output of the camera at 23.98PsF. The Hyperdeck will take the signal.
 
FilmDude said:
Also in the mean time, I've been looking ALL over the Internet trying to get a SIMPLE explanation of the quality/space difference is between 1080PsF23.98 and 1080p23.98 (requiring pulldown)

I understand the hard data, but trying to get more of a difference in what the feel is, is there a slightly different gitter feeling? is one interlaced cheated to look like progressive?
Click to expand...

PsF is a hack Sony came up with to run 23.98 progressive pictures on the HDCAM decks they had at the time in 1998. The decks expected a 29.97 interlaced signal, so somebody realized they could just slow down the clock and transport on the deck and feed it 47.96 fields per second. Each of those fields came from the same frame inside the camera. Make sense? It's a hack to send progressive pics in a interlaced system, just like 23.98>29.97 with 2:3 pulldown added. The picture isn't changed, just the way it's chopped up and sent down the pipe.

As far as HD-SDI signals go, the difference between 23.98 PsF and 23.98P is just a data formatting issue as the serial data comes down the wire. They both assemble the same picture at the destination. There's no look difference in the cadence or anything.
 
Nate is correct.

Take 23.98PsF from your F3 and it will record 23.98 on your Hyperdeck Shuttle.

Ned
 
This is awesome news, thanks a bunch guys, sorry its my first time dealing with a non-dedicated sony product, and was worrying about getting them to talk right. Seems like the output is for PsF and I'm good to go! thanks guys
 
Hmm potential problem: I turned the output to Psf but that ended up stopping the connection from my Marshall 5" hdmi monitor.... What I did was then hook up the hdmi through the loop through, and it works but with a horrible amount of delay... For slow shots and talking heads its ok, but for anything I need to react to the delay is pretty bad.

Going back to the 29i with 2:3 pull down allows me to use my monitor correctly but then the stream recorded is a full 29i that will need 2:3 pulldown and take up more space... ughh!

So I'm good for this project, but might not keep this unit if this horrible delay can't be fixed... it would mean me having to buy a new monitor with HD-SDI connection, which would be MUCH more money than the actual recorder itself. Might wanna return the whole thing after the shoot and go with a Samurai.

Anyone else have this delay? I mean a frame or 2 is ok, but this is pretty bad, feels like 8 frames.
 
You are a life saver, that worked! one slight thing though, I had to switch the HDMI to SD - P mode so its Standard Def... the regular HD-HDMI (didnt even know hdmi could do standard def) didn't put out a signal, but its not that bad because the monitor is only 800x400 so its enough to pull focus with.

Does your F3 allow you to use SDI A and HDMI in HD? If so, is there a firmware update that did this that I'm not aware of?
 
Yes, I have the KiPro Mini connected to SDI A, a Panasonic monitor (component only no SDI or HDMI) connected to SDI out with Y signal only (B&W) and a regular 32" with HDMI for the video village. All at once coming out of the F3.
Is your F3 firmware up to date v1.2?
 
ahh thats it, I only have V1.1 where can I download to 1.2? cant find the link on the sony site anywhere.
 
I have still not been able to figure out why my F3 wont put out an HD signal via hdmi while I have my settings, but none the less I have decided to not use the device after this shoot... Once you crunch all the numbers and the hassle, its more expensive of a recorder to get working properly than a Samurai.

Battery power... if you dont have AB or V mount batteries (which I dont) you have no real way of powering the device...

Backup... just for a small little short film, you need about 8TB of highspeed hard drives for data backup....

Dumping.... Via FW800 it takes 30mins to dump a 64gig card... That means it takes 3x slower than realtime to dump... thats slow. And its a pain if you're using a mac (which most AV pros use) to dump footage since MBP doesnt carry eSATA ... AND most also dont have express slots anymore unless you order that.... So quite annoying.

I can go on and on about the negatives... point is, unless you own AB/V mount batteries with D-Tap options, have endless amounts of fast SSD's on set, have mac compatible esata setup, and all the other options, the recorder is EXTREMELY limited.

Actual cost is much much higher in the long run. Do I love the footage, yes, its close to the best you can get, but at a price that is much higher than anticipated. The time it takes the dump the footage was the real killer, I was prepared for the large data, but not the slowness at which FW800 dumped footage. You'd need 3 dumping stations just to handle a scripted short.

I'm returning everything and going Samurai, It's not that much more money considering all the money spent on drives, dumping station, and stress the Hyperdeck is causing, pretty much equals out to being the cost of a Samurai.

oh well, I tried.
 
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