Sony F3 versus EPIC-s

I'd certainly be looking a lot closer at the Epic-S if it was just around the corner, but looking at that Red release timeline, it 's going to be a looooooonnnnnggggg time coming after all the Red One owners get their Epic-X and M's, then joe publics, then the Scarlet variants....then S35 Epic-S. That could be the end of the year without any stretch of the imagination. At the price point I can't see much else on the horizon besides the F3 and AF100 for low-cost large-format video cameras. Of course NAB may bring new surprises. Red are having a huge bash at NAB this year so THAT will be interesting.
 
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powervideo said:
I can't see much else on the horizon besides the F3 and AF100
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There is also the lower end Sony NX too, hopefully announced at NAB. Varying reports on whether it uses the F3 sensor or not.... The specs I saw were 4:2:2 / 10bit via HD-SDI... sounds very good, around $7-8k
 
It was shown at a trade show with a price of $ 6000. With Sony pricing it could be nearer to the $ 5000 price tag, putting it at a straight contender to the Af-100. If it has the rumored f3 sensor and the base f3 image quality even without S-log and 444 it will be my dream camera.
 
henryolonga said:
I understand that the s-log is only available in 10 bit and through the 4:4:4 dual link outputs. Rules out nano and ninja...having said that do a search on vimeo for the coke advert and the the song feel low by some kiwis shot with the nano. With quality like that - s-log may not really be needed. It looks really good
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Henry,
Are you trying to say the Nano won't work on a 10 bit port?
 
All SDI ports output 10-bit. A so-called 8-bit SDI is actually 10-bit, but with two zeroes added to the 8-bit data to make it 10-bit.

The Nano uses an 8-bit recording format. It won't take advantage of true 10-bit data, but it will still work on any HD-SDI output.

However, I believe what Henry is saying is that s-log is only available on the dual-link output, and because of that, it would rule out any single-stream HD-SDI recorder. Not because it's 10-bit, but because it requires dual-link.

And the Ninja would be ruled out because it's HDMI-only.
 
Okay, that matches my understanding of it.

I have wondered though if you could record the two dual link SDI streams into two synched Nano 3D units. The reason it sounds do-able at all is that HDR in a DSLR is done by merging two images. When carried to extremes this can produce some surreal results. Click the picture to see. Its like a painting. Of course you don't have to push it that far.

AustinPoolS.jpg
 
Duke M. said:
I have wondered though if you could record the two dual link SDI streams into two synched Nano 3D units.
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That I don't know, but I do know that if there's demand for it, and it's possible, I bet the Convergent guys could do it. They've been quite proactive in adding features.
 
Well, With 444 dual link, the first link is a valid 4:2:2 feed, that could be recorded. The second link however, is non cosited (not positioned with any luma information) color samples. Getting that second link to sync to a single link input and record usable data might prove difficult, let alone somehow re-assembling that auxillary chroma information with the 422 feed in post. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I'm not sure on that second link providing proper data when recorded by a single link device. Keep in mind however I HAVE read a report of the second link on a thomson vipers dual link output successfully being hooked up to a single link recorder, just to see if it would work. No word on if the recording was usable in any manner though. If you could, it's gunna take the writing of some new software to mitigate the two recordings in post.


when you're just using dual link to transmit 60p 1080 (422), however, both links are a valid 1080i feed, one link with the first set of fields, the other with the second. I'm sure you could send that out to two recorders, not even synced, just both recording. Line up the clips in post and trim, and I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to write a script in Avisynth to re-assemble them, almost like faux-psf. No promises on that though


Also, there is a lot of assuming that s-log will only be avaliable over dual link. We do not know that for sure. It's up to sony if they want to let us take advantage of such a high end feature with our cheap recorders, or if they want to lock us into hdcam sr decks. S-log and other log spaces in 4:2:2 are used and recorded all the time, the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma subsampling is small when color work is nominal and not ridiculous. I have never seen color banding due to 4:2:2 when the source was an imaging sensor. Only in computer generated imagery with extremely high per-pixel contrast, that an imaging sensor is not capable of producing. When dealing with logarithmic gamma spaces, bit depth is far, far more important. and 10-bit is awesome. (12-bit moreso, but this camera is only 12 grand. We can only ask for so much.)


edit: well putting both of these together in my head - if you're sending s-log out over dual link, due to the sdi dual link specification, link A will be valid 10 bit 4:2:2. So there you go, 10 bit 422 s-log to your ki pro, whether sony specifies it or not.
 
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Fohdeesha said:
Well, With 444 dual link, the first link is a valid 4:2:2 feed, that could be recorded. The second link however, is non cosited (not positioned with any luma information) color samples.
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You know, I could have swore that that's the way I thought/read dual link 4:4:4 worked as well...but I wasn't sure and couldn't place where I heard it, so never mentioned it.

The very first Genesis shoot I visited, where my friend was operating Steadicam (Andy Barker, P.I., circa 2008), I chatted with the DIT and he said they were shooting S-Log (oops, Panalog) to 4:2:2 mode on the SRW decks...and that the powers that be decided 4:4:4 was overkill for narrative TV with no effects work. That decision he made it sound like came from the network and was more of an executive decision, as it had large implications for post costs and time over a season of an episodic narrative show, not to mention how much expensive HDCAM SR raw stock they'd burn through on a daily basis (times 3 cameras).
 
What about HD-SDI 3Gbit/s ? Can't it carry 4:4:4 on a single cable ?

Or are the ports 1st generation 1.5Gbit/s on the F3 ?
 
Nate Weaver said:
You know, I could have swore that that's the way I thought/read dual link 4:4:4 worked as well...but I wasn't sure and couldn't place where I heard it, so never mentioned it.

The very first Genesis shoot I visited, where my friend was operating Steadicam (Andy Barker, P.I., circa 2008), I chatted with the DIT and he said they were shooting S-Log (oops, Panalog) to 4:2:2 mode on the SRW decks...and that the powers that be decided 4:4:4 was overkill for narrative TV with no effects work. That decision he made it sound like came from the network and was more of an executive decision, as it had large implications for post costs and time over a season of an episodic narrative show, not to mention how much expensive HDCAM SR raw stock they'd burn through on a daily basis (times 3 cameras).
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Yup! 444 is overkill unless you're doing some serious post work.

I'm glad I've had this revelation about single link s-log, I don't know why I didn't realize it before when discussing if sony will allow s-log over a single link sdi. They don't have a choice!


10 bit s-log for everyone! (well, except for nano owners :Drogar-Happy(DBG):)


PDR said:
What about HD-SDI 3Gbit/s ? Can't it carry 4:4:4 on a single cable ?

Or are the ports 1st generation 1.5Gbit/s on the F3 ?
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Yes, sdi 3G can carry 1080p 444 up to 30p I believe.

I'm not sure if sony has specified whether the ports will be 3G or not. Don't know of any recorders supporting 3G at this point either. (besides the very pricey stuff)
 
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