Sony EX3 VS. Panasonic HPX170

I think in a compressed environment, the cleaner the signal you can send though the encoder, the better chance the encoder has.

The detail settings in these cameras really turn out to be more edge enhancement than enything else. The amount of detail is captured by the sensors.

I have had the best results with turning down detail quite a bit which reduces noise in the image and sharpening pretty heavy in post.

The advantage being that the software sharpening has much more processing power at its disposal and it will approach the entire image rather than just the edges.

I use Edius and am amazed at how much clean detail can be found using this method. This has worked best with Panasonic cameras but applies the the EX-1 as well.
 
There is a parameter called Crispening. It actually controls non-edge enhancement--ie, the texture of surfaces. I've done a series of experiments with shooting textured metal parts on a vintage reel to reel machine and even on the LCD with focus assist, the differences are noticeable.
My best images happened with the edge frequency above +20 and modest sharpening in the + direction. The key to eliminating halos around bright highlights is the black and white limiters. I keep mine around +80 and the halos just vanish with no apparent negative effect on any other part of the image.
I too have played with unsharp mask in my editor and even on DV footage I shot years ago, could pull some fine details out, within the limits of the medium. I have not felt the need to pull more detail out of the EX1 footage, except in cases where I blew the focus while on manual.
 
GuyB said:
I knew I would be on full zoom 80% of the game as the lens is a bit on the short side for the ground I am shooting at which is a decent size.
Click to expand...

Hey Guy

Any chance you have some game footage you can show? I am most likely buying an EX1, but the Panny people have scared me with their propaganda. They say stuff like "If you plan on shooting wide vistas with no movement get the EX1. If you plan on moving the camera left or right, or going hand held get a HPX170". So I would love to see some EX1 shots with movement in them. I'll be mostly mellow stuff on a tripod with medium pans, but occasionally I may need to shoot part of a basketball game for some school.

To anyone: I am looking for some real world EX1 footage with some real world movement. I know about Philip Bloom and his Lettus slow-mo stuff. Beautiful. But how about just a shot of some dogs running around in real time? Camera out a car window? How about a shot taken on a boat? 160 degree pan of some buildings?

I need to separate the fan-boy(girl) propaganda from the straight poop. I am not a rich man, but I do want to invest in a 1080 cam that will give me all around goodness for years to come. So can some of you help me with this rolling shutter fear? I know what it is, and I've seen the horror shots.

Have any of you not used a shot due to skew?

Thanks

Chadfish
 
I'll see what I can do for you Chad. I do have the whole last game recorded directly to HDD, try doing that with a Panny ;-)

Edit: Sample video uploaded to Vimeo:

http://www.vimeo.com/4818766

You can download the window media 720 50p version as well.
 
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Skew has never been an issue for me. I have observed a 'jello' effect when bumping the tripod with the EX1 on it, but nothing that affected a practical shoot.

One beneficial side effect of the EX1 is low noise. I shot a panel discussion last week that was nearly 3 hours in length. The whole thing had to fit on a single layer DVD, so I used a bitrate under 3mb/S. The lack of noise allowed me to choose a very low encoder rate which enabled me to produce a DVD with superb picture quality (even on a 50" plasma) while running the bitrate at very low rates. And that, despite applying a lot of sharpening in post to punch up the detail on the DVD.

Overall, it's unbeatable for the price vs. features. You can't go wrong.
 
Still Deciding...

Still Deciding...

Hey guys I've been on both EX1 vs HPX170 / 150 threads trying to get some clarification on how serious the CMOS jello and such is. This guy Flash Beaver is a P2 guy and has some points. Didn't like the EX1 for boat work, zoomed pans etc. Tells me I'll get jello if I try to recreate a shot I did on my VX2100 by aiming my camera out the back of my car at the Redwoods while moving. His post to me is on page 5 of this thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1645251#post1645251

Can anyone please speak to these points from the Ex1 user point of view? Like I said there I have no rental access or stores, or other users to borrow from. CMOS issues are the only thing making me hesitate on this purchase. Your opinions are appreciated.

Here are some examples of work I've done, and the types of shots I do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txUXx1ABePI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYG6D45qC5U&feature=channel
There's some car stuff on this "Every 15 Minutes" vid with bumps, and some pans & zooms at 4:30 and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-et6k-qxM&feature=channel

I wonder if bumps in the road, even little ones, will jello my shots out? Or bump down the detail due to everything moving?

Thanks.

Chadfish
 
Tells me I'll get jello if I try to recreate a shot I did on my VX2100 by aiming my camera out the back of my car at the Redwoods while moving.
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Hey Chadfish, I checked out your videos and I didn't see anything that would be a problem with CMOS. In fact I was up in your area a couple weeks ago shooting redwoods in Humboldt Redwoods State Park and I got plenty of shots from my moving car driving through the majestic groves, no worries there. I shoot with an EX1. I wish I had some clips online to link. I'm sure both cameras you're deciding on are great, but I can personally attest that you won't get skew pointing your EX1 out the back of your car while pointing it at redwoods, unless you're camera is badly vibrating (in which case your footage would be unuseable no matter what kind of camera you were using). Skewing with the EX1 is WAY overstated, but lots of frame-filling flash photography is not.
 
Thanks Buck

Sometimes in a car we don't catch the bad bumps, like in the "15 Min" vid. I was a little worried from some HV20 footage on a tripod in wooden stands. People walked by and jello... maybe I had OIS on too. But al CMOS chips aren't the same I guess too.
 
I would also echo Buck's comments on this. I watched two of your clips and there is nothing that would present a distracting rolling shutter artifact in those reels.
There's another member here who shoots from small watercraft--if he's getting great footage out the EX1, then I think none of us have anything to worry about with regard to 'JelloCam'.
You'll gain so much in terms of the look of the richness of images that you'll soon forget the word JelloCam ever existed. If you're not shooting intense full-frame flashes of light, it is highly unlikely you will find any objectionable rolling shutter artifact.
 
EX1/EX3 are fantastic cameras, we use both of them. Like anything you have to know how to tweak it. But the pic profiles, the clarity, the low light and great stock lens are a real plus.
They are finicky with lens adapters due to the oversized optics and its lens. But overall, we are quite impressed with them and we came straight from using the F900s and Panny Vari cams.

You have a lot of great users above in this thread, with tips and tricks so welcome to the family!
Cheers
 
DEPTH OF PHIL said:
They are finicky with lens adapters due to the oversized optics and its lens.
Click to expand...

Hi Philip!

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I have actually found a guy who has an EX1 in the area. A friend of a friend who I might meet and get to check the thing out in person. Anyway, concerning lens adapters...

Are you talking WA adapters? I eventually plan on going a bit wider. Is there a bayonet mountability for something like that on the EX1?

Or are you talking about adding something like a Lettus/brevis adapter? What do you mean by "finicky"? Down the line I want to go that rout too for possible short film work.

Thanks for all the input guys. You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side... However that little Panni 150 looks pretty cool. I wonder how the footage would blend between the 2 brands if I got my boss to pick up a 150, and I get the EX1.


Later

Chadfish
 
You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side...
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Ha ha! I think people are just more apt to promote what they are familiar with, regardless of type of product or brand. I came real close to getting an HVX200 but held off when the EX1 was introduced and went through the same process you're going through now. I'm convinced I would've loved the HVX200, but I absolutely love the footage from my EX1. Either way you can't go wrong, it's not like there's secret information being withheld and one is the right choice and the other left you sucker-punched, ha! That said, there's some truth to the story that all those Panasonic guys "fell for the trick" and now they're pissed off and they want you too! :Drogar-Smoke(DBG):
 
Right on Buck.

The market I'm working in now doesn't even have any HD television locally, so professionally I'll be busting my footage to SD before I deliver, but I want to have the full resolution for future projects and be ready if something comes my way.

Maybe you know this: Do botth the EX1 and 170/150/200 put out broadcast resolution? If I were shooting for library footage could it be used on discovery channel? Or is that all for the big big boy cams? I heard somewhere that BBC won't take EX1 footage because it's too compressed. What can you (or anyone) tell me about these cams and HD programming?

Thanks!

Chadfish
 
From what I understand (which is not as much as many others here), Discovery Channel HD has tiers (Gold, Silver, Bronze) for cameras and I've heard from these forums that the EX1/3 is rated at Silver, which is apparently good enough for 100% acquisition. I could be wrong but I think the HVX200a and HPX170 can only be used for certain percentages, not 100%. I think some HD programs like The Alaska Experiment and Man vs. Wild use the HVX200 for their footage when the big cameras are too much to handle in the circumstances, so it's a combo. I don't say this de facto, so someone may correct me if needed. I don't know much about the BBC's requirements. I've seen some of the HD channels say they need 1/2" chips or larger as a minimum. I feel very confident I can get my EX1 footage as a primary camera on most any HD channel.

In your case you might want to shoot HCM150 for a year or so, save yourself some initial moolah in the process, because in another year I'm pretty sure you'll have a lot more options to choose from. It's going HD fast, and bigger and cheaper. The Canon Mark II just went manual control and Scarlet will 'probably' be out later this year and the other companies will probably have true 1920x1080+ offerings in price ranges that are less than today. It's always "transition time" with technology, but I think even more so at this moment. If I were buying right now and I didn't 'have' to have the resolution of the EX1, I'd go with the 150 and wait a year. If I had to have high-rez in a sub-$8,000 camera, I'd jump all over the EX1 again, right here, right now. You betcha. It'll be viable for quite a while with the picture it makes.
 
Chadfish said:
Hi Philip!

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I have actually found a guy who has an EX1 in the area. A friend of a friend who I might meet and get to check the thing out in person. Anyway, concerning lens adapters...

Are you talking WA adapters? I eventually plan on going a bit wider. Is there a bayonet mountability for something like that on the EX1?

Or are you talking about adding something like a Lettus/brevis adapter? What do you mean by "finicky"? Down the line I want to go that rout too for possible short film work.

Thanks for all the input guys. You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side... However that little Panni 150 looks pretty cool. I wonder how the footage would blend between the 2 brands if I got my boss to pick up a 150, and I get the EX1.


Later

Chadfish
Click to expand...

Well all the guys on the forum may be able to help on this one, (please) Well Century makes a "updated" Wide angle 0.75 for the EX1 and its full zoom thru now and excellent, But it is very pricey . I have not tried Cavision's WA out , they have three models i believe , any body used a Cavision on EX1?

DOF adapter's you will find many posts on this subject , but EX1 Letus Elite/Ultimate (way too pricey) have no major problems anymore with the EX1/EX3.

Blade is on it's way with the new upgraded achromat to help solve the issue, but it's not perfect, (what is perfect anyway?) G35 also works well on an EX1 as well!
Perhaps some else give us a summary on the M2E, so we don't cross threads too much.

You making a great choice, and you will learn to work around its rolling shutter issues. & remember to take the detail off in the settings
Congrats
 
Chadfish said:
Right on Buck.

The market I'm working in now doesn't even have any HD television locally, so professionally I'll be busting my footage to SD before I deliver, but I want to have the full resolution for future projects and be ready if something comes my way.

Maybe you know this: Do botth the EX1 and 170/150/200 put out broadcast resolution? If I were shooting for library footage could it be used on discovery channel? Or is that all for the big big boy cams? I heard somewhere that BBC won't take EX1 footage because it's too compressed. What can you (or anyone) tell me about these cams and HD programming?

Thanks!

Chadfish
Click to expand...

Well , NBC Universal take EX series so does Sony Television, that is who we license our footage too. If it will put out 1080p x 1920, it is true HD broadcast specs.
Cheers
 
I don't use 35mm adapters, but I do use the bayonet mount wide-angle adapters. I have the Sony .8x and the Century .55x Fisheye. The go on easy and work great. The Sony is sharp and full zoom-thru, the Century is sharp where I need it to be but vignettes along the corners (but the corners are distorted anyway).
 
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