Sony EX3 or NO ??

These days its common for several different cameras to be used in any movie. After all why limit yourself. Instead successful producers and directors use what is best for the situation.

Reportedly Public Enemies was used for all the interior car shots. Since it was a gangster movie with a lot of running around in cars that was a fairly large amount. It cuts in quite well with the F23 footage and no one notices the difference between the expensive camera and the cheaper one.

Sorry Basspig, but Crank2 did us the A1. In all those high motion shots the CCD sensors produce much less skew than any CMOS sensor. I'd really like to know what steps they took in post processing the A1 footage to keep it so clean since the A1 has a 1.33 PAR. Its a weird movie with great camera work, chasing after cars on roller blades, multi camera rigs, tons of technique there.

District 9 is the odd ball in my opinion. The EX1 was used for the hand held journalistic shots with the Red One for the rest. I wouldn't have expected any less with Peter Jackson producing. They really had to dirty up the footage of the EX1 though, but its easier to dirty up footage than to clean it up.
 
Hi all,

thanks for the kind comments on my film KERBEROS.

I do not think we had rolling shutter issues on all action shots - there may be panning frame rate issues on a few individual shots but that would have happened on most cameras shooting at 24P. There were a couple shots where the rolling shutter of the CMOS chip acqusition gave me the classic result of half frames - it happened on shooting camera flashes, gunshots, and police strobes, but certainly not all the time - just enough to be a PITA when it did happen :)

If the blacks are crushed or contrast too high - it is a limitation of my abilities and taste as a colorist, rarely a function of the camera itself.

Kely_McClungs_Kerberos.jpg


I also I think in watching the trailers and moving clips on YT, you have to remember they are radically compressed - which of course is throwing out the millions of graduations in tones that might make you think differently.

I've gotten better at creating settings that take advantage of YT progress in delivering better videos as well. If you are judging by the early clips that were put up last year, it might be better to watch one or some of the ones I have put up more recently.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMovieKerberos

For a bit more accurate representation, I have several galleries of before and after frame grabs and finished stills, as well as frame grabs from a wide variety of situations in terms of light and action with a bit of info on the set ups and shooting situations.

http://www.kerberosbites.com/pages/cc_chase.html

http://www.kerberosbites.com/pages/cc_examples.html

Over all I am thrilled with the camera. I do not like it's fragility upon dropping off of ladders!

I like the camera enough that I will count on using it again and plan on shooting my next film with a pretty even combination of EX1 and one of the DSLR's as they both have their unique strengths and feel I'll be covered in most of what I want to do.

As far as comparing these cameras based on the success of a given movie/project/film - remember most of their success and perceived quality is still due to story and acting as opposed to camera advantages and limitations... :)

hope it helps! Keep making movies!

Kely McClung

http://www.kerberosbites.com
 
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Otis Grapsas said:
You mean 1.33 pixel aspect ratio as in 1440 pixel wide format? It's not a big deal.
Click to expand...

Yes, 1440. Not a big deal but 25% less data. On the big screen each pixe becomes something like 1/2"x1/2", but in this case nearer 3/4"x1/2" after its stretched back to 1920.

I used to use, and still like, the picture quality of the A1. I've seen it cut with EX1 footage. I can tell the difference, but the general public can't. In Crank 2, which I went to see specifically because the A1 was used, the PQ looked as good as anything shot on film.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
District 9 used Red, and they used EX to "look like a journalistic camera being operated by a semiprofessional videographer trying to capture everything that's going on".

Public enemies was F23, so I guess they only used EX if using the F23 was impossible in a shot.

Crank 2 was shot on Canons. Global shutter 1/3" CCD XH-A1 and small CMOS camcorders when camera motion was not required (mounted to get an angle in a action shots).
Click to expand...


Oops... so much for quoting posts from "that other forum".. I guess Chris doesn't check the content for accuracy over there.. they didn't even read their own Wiki articles through.. but I did see a list of other films more recently produced that were EX1/3-centric shoots. I lost track of which forum I spotted that list on and 20 minutes searching for it last night netted no success.

What I DO know is that the images I get out of the EX3 with the stock lens rival anything I have seen on Blu-ray, on my 12' projection screen, excepting some MPEG artifacts blurring some details. If I had a Nanoflash and could utilize the full 30-bit uncompressed color from the HD-SDI, I am confident that the picture quality could match anything on Blu-ray.

Shooting 4K gets you the ability to crop and reframe shots, but if shots are carefully-planned, I don't see why an EX3 would not be perfectly suited to making any film.
 
Kely said:
If the blacks are crushed or contrast too high - it is a limitation of my abilities and taste as a colorist, rarely a function of the camera itself.
Click to expand...

http://www.kerberosbites.com/pages/cc%20pages/cc_skinny_wh_a.html

The before image is video level in its blacks (over 16 in 8bit scale), the after image is not (near 0 in digital scale). If you send the after image though a codec and a media player, its black will be lost 90% of the times depending on the codec and player. This could explain the trailer shadow levels.
 
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These days when "Camera A was used in some parts of a project", the forums say "The project was shot on camera A."

As an example, only a small part of Slumdog Millionaire was from the SI camera but if you ask 100 people, 98 will say it was shot on SI.
 
I just edited a post by mistake instead of sending a new one. Anyway, it had some nice words on the photography of the Kerberos trailer:)
 
Kely said:
Hi all,

thanks for the kind comments on my film KERBEROS.

I do not think we had rolling shutter issues on all action shots - there may be panning frame rate issues on a few individual shots but that would have happened on most cameras shooting at 24P. http://www.kerberosbites.com
Click to expand...
Glad you were able to clear that up as I didn't see rolling shutter on ALL action shots either.
 
Madp said:
Glad you were able to clear that up as I didn't see rolling shutter on ALL action shots either.
Click to expand...

How can Kely clear that up? :) I'm seeing rolling shuttter when the camera shakes or moves vertically, not everyone is equally sensitive to it.

The trailer on youtube (EDIT: the Red Banned clip) does have illegal levels. Downloading and playing back in videolan with mapping to full range (0 to 255) makes it look a lot better in the shadows.

The main trailer is correct.
 
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Otis Grapsas said:
How can Kely clear that up? :) I'm seeing rolling shuttter when the camera shakes or moves vertically, not everyone is equally sensitive to it.
Click to expand...
If you're seeing rolling shutter on every one of the action shots in Kelys trailer, I question whether you know what it is and your abiility to identify it, not your sensitivity to it. :)
 
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Madp said:
If your seeing rolling shutter on every one of the action shots in Kelys trailer, I question whether you know what it is and your abiility to identify it, not your sensitivity to it. :)
Click to expand...

It is a question of sensitivity, not knowledge. We know the rolling shutter is always there after all, just like CCD smear is always there, it's just that depending on the shot it's less visible. I have spent so much time on CMOS tests that I can spot it even when there is no camera motion at all when an object is moving vertically. The good thing is that the average viewer will not notice until it becomes wobble, a split frame or very slanted vertical lines. Now that almost eveyrthing is CMOS, most people are accustomed to it.
 
Thanks Otis,

With a movie title like KERBEROS, impressing the Greeks is important!

I think the solid blacks on something like YT is still a function of compression - going from over 150 MB's per second to maybe 2 Mbps max - amazing we can see anything at all!

When doing some of my sound in London - I did watch playback for two weeks on a screen nearly 30 feet across. Because playback of the sound was paramount for that work, the movie was again compressed to a low data rate 720P MP4 so as not to tax the overhead of the dozens (up to 150 tracks) of uncompressed audio we had going with all the processing and filtering and fx.

All I can say is from my end it looked amazing... Now whether someone likes my story or not I can't say - but even the other engineers, even the cooks and bookkeepers at Twickenham were constantly popping in to watch as they had all heard how great it looked. (most were cringing at what they perceived as my American tastes in violence which I took as a good sign :) )

I agree it's hard to know what is really being shot on what when it comes to the hype of any given camera. They do say the last episode of House was not only shot on the Canon DSLR's but exclusively with Canon lenses as well. Quite a bit different than the Navy Seals feature shot with Panavision Primo primes!

I appreciate the nice comments and reaction to our movie. Athens is a bit far away - but if anyone is in LA, we screen at the Action On Film festival in July and I'd be thrilled to have you see it on a big screen! They are supposed to be making kind of a big deal about it with a Saturday night screening and after party, and my friend and fellow DVXuser Stan Harrington will be showing his feature film CREED just a couple hours before, so it's gonna be fun.

That might of sounded a bit like a commercial but it would be cool to have a chance to meet and hang out with some of the people interested.

No matter what, I wish you all success on your own projects and will try to post anything I think is worthwhile about mine so others can benefit from my mistakes.

Already thinking about the next... :) and am thankful for this forum so I can learn and take inspiration from all of you.

Making movies!

kely
 
Otis Grapsas said:
It is a question of sensitivity, not knowledge. We know the rolling shutter is always there after all, just like CCD smear is always there, it's just that depending on the shot it's less visible. I have spent so much time on CMOS tests that I can spot it even when there is no camera motion at all when an object is moving vertically. The good thing is that the average viewer will not notice until it becomes wobble, a split frame or very slanted vertical lines. Now that almost eveyrthing is CMOS, most people are accustomed to it.
Click to expand...

Sensitivity and "spotting it" are two different things. People who are "sensitive" to bright lights for instance have a constant issue with bright lights, it is not learned. "spotting it" means you are actively looking for something, with a trained eye supposedly and that is when it does becomes a question of "knowledge" so you are simply wrong on that point, it has nothing to do with sensitivity.

So based on your original statement of making the comment that there is rolling shutter in ALL action shots. Why stop there? Since you see rolling shutter ANY TIME the camera moves.

Point is, the action shots look fine, since you see rolling shutter virtually all the time anyway, maybe you can't distinguish the severity.
 
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Kely said:
Thanks Otis,

With a movie title like KERBEROS, impressing the Greeks is important!

I think the solid blacks on something like YT is still a function of compression - going from over 150 MB's per second to maybe 2 Mbps max - amazing we can see anything at all!

When doing some of my sound in London - I did watch playback for two weeks on a screen nearly 30 feet across. Because playback of the sound was paramount for that work, the movie was again compressed to a low data rate 720P MP4 so as not to tax the overhead of the dozens (up to 150 tracks) of uncompressed audio we had going with all the processing and filtering and fx.

All I can say is from my end it looked amazing... Now whether someone likes my story or not I can't say - but even the other engineers, even the cooks and bookkeepers at Twickenham were constantly popping in to watch as they had all heard how great it looked. (most were cringing at what they perceived as my American tastes in violence which I took as a good sign :) )

I agree it's hard to know what is really being shot on what when it comes to the hype of any given camera. They do say the last episode of House was not only shot on the Canon DSLR's but exclusively with Canon lenses as well. Quite a bit different than the Navy Seals feature shot with Panavision Primo primes!

I appreciate the nice comments and reaction to our movie. Athens is a bit far away - but if anyone is in LA, we screen at the Action On Film festival in July and I'd be thrilled to have you see it on a big screen! They are supposed to be making kind of a big deal about it with a Saturday night screening and after party, and my friend and fellow DVXuser Stan Harrington will be showing his feature film CREED just a couple hours before, so it's gonna be fun.

That might of sounded a bit like a commercial but it would be cool to have a chance to meet and hang out with some of the people interested.

No matter what, I wish you all success on your own projects and will try to post anything I think is worthwhile about mine so others can benefit from my mistakes.

Already thinking about the next... :) and am thankful for this forum so I can learn and take inspiration from all of you.

Making movies!

kely
Click to expand...

Thanks Kely. If I had any idea something like this was in production from a dvxuser member I would send a prototype of my camera for tests and possible use in production.
 
Madp said:
So based on your original statement of making the comment that there is rolling shutter in ALL action shots. Why stop there? Since you see rolling shutter ANY TIME the camera moves.
Click to expand...

Any time ANYTHING moves:)

About the severity, it puzzles me that only a few people can see it when it is in small ammounts. Some people do see it though, they know something is wrong even when they know nothing about sensors. Not many people agree with them either.
 
Kely said:
I appreciate the nice comments and reaction to our movie. Athens is a bit far away - but if anyone is in LA, we screen at the Action On Film festival in July and I'd be thrilled to have you see it on a big screen! They are supposed to be making kind of a big deal about it with a Saturday night screening and after party, and my friend and fellow DVXuser Stan Harrington will be showing his feature film CREED just a couple hours before, so it's gonna be fun.
Click to expand...

@ Kely,
I live a bit south of LA, but it would be fun to go and meet some fellow DVXUser people there. When and where in July?

@ Otis,
My film just received some funding. I was going to shoot 90% EX1 and 10% A1 for the CCD's. We should talk.

Duke
 
I have a DVD box set called THE MIGHTY SATURNS, which is all from NASA films of the Saturn 1-5 rocket launches. These films were recorded with high speed B&W film at frame rates up to 500fps in some cases. Looking at the earlier films from 1961, a very severe amount of rolling shutter is apparent, as the gantry structure rocks and vibrates a bit as the launch takes place. The picture shows a definate "jello cam" effect, almost as severe as cell phone video. Rolling shutter was a major reality in the earlier days of film and is nothing new here.
 
Duke M. said:
@ Kely,
I live a bit south of LA, but it would be fun to go and meet some fellow DVXUser people there. When and where in July?

Duke
Click to expand...

Duke - it would seriously be cool. Stan and I both screen the same day... July 24th in Pasadena at the Action On Film Festival... Stan at maybe 4pm and then Kerberos at about 7... would be awesome to meet and introduce you to some others in LA and of course see the flick...

I actually have half dozen flying in from ATL and maybe another half dozen driving down from Santa Cruz - and then we know a lot of LA actors and filmmakers, and of course Stan lives in Hollywood.

I'll keep you up on it and post as soon as they put up the official schedule... this will be our finished film's World Premiere - so we're excited by it all...

Awesome about your own project!

kely
 
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