Sony A7S vs Sony F35 - the big vs the small.

I am finding the BM4K (raw) to be a nice portable complement to the F35. The global shutter and comparable color when down-scaled to HD are the two biggest factors for me.
The two cameras are able to match fairly well during grading, but the actual color information captured from the F35 still remains unparalleled.
When I compared the BMP4k at 400 and Sony at 450 in low light, the 4K felt like it had dramatically less sensitivity by a stop or two despite both cameras sharing similar sensitivities on paper.
When pushed too far, the Blackmagic 4K exhibits pattern noise and feels like video. Nonetheless, when exposure was right on with the 4K, the footage intercuts seamlessly.
What my testing reaffirmed was the fact that I have to do a lot less image massaging to get the F35 to look great, and the amount of real information captured by the F35 at each pixel is second to none. :)
 
Film Scientist said:
I am finding the BM4K (raw) to be a nice portable complement to the F35. The global shutter and comparable color when down-scaled to HD are the two biggest factors for me.
The two cameras are able to match fairly well during grading, but the actual color information captured from the F35 still remains unparalleled.
When I compared the BMP4k at 400 and Sony at 450 in low light, the 4K felt like it had dramatically less sensitivity by a stop or two despite both cameras sharing similar sensitivities on paper.
When pushed too far, the Blackmagic 4K exhibits pattern noise and feels like video. Nonetheless, when exposure was right on with the 4K, the footage intercuts seamlessly.
What my testing reaffirmed was the fact that I have to do a lot less image massaging to get the F35 to look great, and the amount of real information captured by the F35 at each pixel is second to none. :)
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You think they cut good? Didn't look so in macgregor's test. 1.F35, 2.BM4K, 3.GH4:


macgregor said:
And now an exterior shot. UNGRADED LOG IMAGES!
The sony and the blackmagic are set to Log and 5600K. The pana is set to cinestyle -5,-5,-5, underexposed by 1stop, daylight WB.
3camsext.jpg
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I'll qualify it by saying, ( if shot raw) once graded yes, they inter-cut pretty well.
It's difficult to compare ungraded files as apples to apples comparison, without seeing how they are represented on a waveform. Each native file has a different white points and gamm depending on the sensitivity of the chip.
The F35 CCD chip is natively balanced for 3200k (tungsten/skin), while the GH4 and Blackmagic have CMOS chips and are natively balanced closer to 5000K. I will try to show you guys an example tomorrow. Cheers.
 
Did my test today - I'm very happy with the color and dynamic range out of the A7S - much better and more usuable than the BMPC - and of course amazing in low light. Also its has higher perceived resolution - less moire on items with higher sharpness. Maybe also because I turned sharpness down to -7.

The rolling shutter is back to Canon 5D Mark II levels - but the benefits of how clean it is in stealing shots and locations makes up for this immensely. The amount of color information the A7S read in a tungsten environment that the BMPC seemed to choke on was really quite incredible.

Also as a camera with sharpness tools, swivel screen, zebras - lots of tools - it feels really just right. Definitely more versatile than the BMPC. I really think this camera is going to be a winner and a good one to have in anyone's arsenal. Just make sure you get out your 5d handheld rig thingies.

I really think this camera is going to be a winner.
 
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eddavid said:
Also as a camera with sharpness tools, swivel screen, zebras - lots of tools - it feels really just right. Definitely more versatile than the BMPC. I really think this camera is going to be a winner and a good one to have in anyone's arsenal. Just make sure you get out your 5d handheld rig thingies.

I really think this camera is going to be a winner.
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I love my blackmagics but i gotta agree with this. I think the camera feels great in hand and operates super fast and nice. Once we get colors there whether it's a cinegamma or slog or what I think it'll be a winner. Apparently the 4k is pretty nice too out of it.

Not an F35, but I'll take it for it's flexibility.
 
Here's my test video:

https://vimeo.com/99854427


Hey Guys,

Here's a test between the Sony A7S vs Blackmagic Pocket Camera using the Leica R 50mm f1.4 and 24mm lens.

Sony A7S Specs:
Slog, s gamut, +2 phase, -7 detail, -3 saturation, white balance all over the place. night went to 2500k a lot so it gets noisy

Blackmagic Pocket camera with speedbooster shot at 5600k and 4000k, shot raw

This is an informal test - its not a good test - not scientific or even done correctly. A lot of scientists would frown.

I was really looking at how bad the moire is on the A7S. and its not a perfect comparison with the black magic because the blackmagic had a 24mm lens on it while the a7s had the 50mm for similar field of view. So moire is different. I was stupid. And I realized that when we were already on the subway.

I used osiris m31 lut and filmconvert arri alexa lut fujifilm vivid. corrected them hard to see how to break the Sony A7S 8 bit 422 XAVC codec.

what have I learned?

Sony A7s seems off the bat to have a much richer color palette - the sensor seems to respond better to flourescent light and tungsten and daylight - mixed conditions. It also seems to have more perceived resolution, less moire than the blackmagic.

Also my grade of the Blackmagic was pretty horrible - I was tired - went till 2am last night. And I could go back in - but I am still tired and it's time to celebrate july 4th.

The dynamic range of the A7S and the greater sensitivity of it and the beautiful color makes me love the Sony A7S. I pray that Sony will go against their better judgement and fix the rolling shutter - if it heats up, make a mode that you can only record for 30 minutes then it shuts down - get wacky. that rolling shutter makes it feel like we are back to the 5d mark ii all over again.

grading 8 bit is fun - like shooting with it on the old days - Varicam, or the C300 - you want to make sure you nail your exposure in camera or its going to get noisy!!!

The A7S has so many lovely features - peaking, zebra, ability to record hdmi to the odyssey 7q right now as 1080p - soon maybe one day 4k - and a swivel LCD - and its just a really smart good dslr - I think this camera will cut nicely with Alexa and other log cameras. Those really rich colors make it quite lovely and I think Sony will sell a boatload of these. How many times have you needed to steal a shot on the subway or airport or bar or anywhere? How many times have you wanted to quickly get an overhead shot or underwater shot or throw the camera in some small space for a creative shot? This is the guy for that. Hopefully rolling shutter gets fixed by Sony (maybe it will make it overheat but maybe they can do a shut off thing) but still even with its bad rolling shutter its still usable for a lot of filmmaking. Dynamic range is very important to cut with higher end cameras and it can do that. It's not the perfect dream camera everyone had in their mind back in the day when red promised 3k for $3000 - the scarlet at the time, but for its price and size and image quality and its reliability - it will do just fine.

CREDITS
Ed David - DP, editor, colorist - http://www.kittyguerrilla.com
Phil Kibbe - http://philkibbe.com/additional photographer and modeling http://philkibbe.com/
Adam Uhl - wanted to help with the test but was away, wanted to do it via Skype.

Special thanks:
DVXUSER, MacGregor, Hunter Hampton for encouraging me to dance, and VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
 
Interesting video Ed. But you right. Rolling shutter is baaaad. Both cameras have bad rolling shutter.
 
Ha! Looks like a fun night out! Both cameras look pretty good but the BMPC in raw has a nice aesthetic and less rolling shutter. The high iso on the a7s looks crazy though, lightning!
 
yes the test video wasn't the best - my latest one is much better - https://vimeo.com/102244108

however the greens are electric. but I am very happy with it.

I went a7s over blackmagic pocket camera because of how it handles highlights and dynamic range over middle grey - I felt that the A7S handles this better for doc work - but I still have both. also it seems like a richer color palette. oh well - need to retest.
 
Interesting video Ed, thanks for sharing. Aesthetically, there was really no comparison there for me - the Blackmagic wiped the floor with the A7S, the image was more stable, and the colour came out much more naturally, I actually found the A7S footage hard to watch, where the Blackmagic was fine.

The Sony looks really nice on your second video (with things locked down on the tripod) but I definitely think it's one to avoid any handheld movement with.
 
eddavid said:
yes the test video wasn't the best - my latest one is much better - https://vimeo.com/102244108

however the greens are electric. but I am very happy with it.

I went a7s over blackmagic pocket camera because of how it handles highlights and dynamic range over middle grey - I felt that the A7S handles this better for doc work - but I still have both. also it seems like a richer color palette. oh well - need to retest.
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Hi Ed I was talking about a7s vs F35 video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY59GQ1Hu70&feature=youtu.be

a7s look artificially sharpened.
 
who knows what his or her's sharpness settings are on both cameras - need more data to see. but still it looks like it cuts pretty well together for using that a7s for a breaking bad style shot. compare it with bmpc - that would be good to see
 
macgregor said:
Unfortunately what I'm seeing from the a7s, while technically superb, does not look very cinematic. Similar to what happens with the f3. Or the reds. Or so many others.
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This is a truly bold statement... Man, you should know if someone calls you a 'cult leader' opening a thread you should be a bit careful with your thoughts. To see to immediately pop up silly stuff is not a hush puppy. It is not even fair to Jim and Jarred who have done so much towards you and all of us can now materialize our dreams beyond HDV.... and if you had already gotten to put your chicks that time through a cinematic tube then, tell me now that wasn't alike : D Come on, give to real world a break... BTW, this was shot with a C100 (+ Atomos recorder) and tell me that is not cinematic enough to a few geeks... ; ) we people who have made it possible, we don't mind ;-)

http://www.dearestjane.com/#!trailer/cl98
 
Emanuel said:
This is a truly bold statement... Man, you should know if someone calls you a 'cult leader' opening a thread you should be a bit careful with your thoughts. To see to immediately pop up silly stuff is not a hush puppy. It is not even fair to Jim and Jarred who have done so much towards you and all of us can now materialize our dreams beyond HDV.... and if you had already gotten to put your chicks that time through a cinematic tube then, tell me now that wasn't alike : D Come on, give to real world a break... BTW, this was shot with a C100 (+ Atomos recorder) and tell me that is not cinematic enough to a few geeks... ; ) we people who have made it possible, we don't mind ;-)

http://www.dearestjane.com/#!trailer/cl98
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Emanuel, are you serious with that link????
 
macgregor said:
Emanuel, are you serious with that link????
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LOL

Yes Miguel, I am. Because what is "cinematic" * to you, it is not for many others and vice versa. The whole thing is when we think cinematic means copy -> paste a formula... And you know it as much as I guess anyone of us here too.


* Only to express here a concept, call it "cinematic" or anything else (for some reason someone invented the use of MacGuffin in another context) but it is not surely property of a few enlightened people... Listen, even speaking against me or do you think I put thumbs up in everything next my door? Let's not forget filmmaking is always a compromise to begin with DIFFERENT people behind the cameras under the vision of Mr. The Director and to match some people's expectations who put the circus on the other side with the ass sit somewhere in a chair... at times, you have one only chance to reach them as it is known our french neighbors say: for début, there is budget, for the second one, oui ou non ;-)
 
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please Emmanuel do not question our cult leader Mac. Who convinced us all to spend over 12k on a camera. He is the right one. What he says always goes. Sorry man, that's just how it is.
 
eddavid said:
please Emmanuel do not question our cult leader Mac. Who convinced us all to spend over 12k on a camera. He is the right one. What he says always goes. Sorry man, that's just how it is.
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: D Hush puppy mode from now on : ) Miguel, BTW you can send me the check since I was banned from dvinfo for life also based on I once dared to clarify who cares, I knew then as now, you are actually (and also ; ) a talented geek but you were not and we firmly believe you'll never be a fake cinematic shooter... LOL :-*
 
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