Sony A7s ii vs. Ursa Mini 4K vs. Waiting...

S

Scotty Fox

Member
Hi All,

I'm a writer/director with a background in post-production. Looking to purchase my own camera due to frequency of shoots and building my own knowledge of lighting/camera work, etc. without having to go out and rent gear every single time.

My focus will be on mostly narrative work, but in that there's a lot of small, micro budget aspects that sometimes push you into the guerrilla filmmaking zone, limited resources, etc.

I originally wanted to go for the Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k, but after adding up all the accessories, lenses, and so forth, I was getting a number at about $10K or north of that. Frankly, I feel it's too much for what I'm doing to start. Instead my focus shifted to the Sony A7S ii. I've used it before and even matched some of its footage to a RED Epic (shooting in log space) so I feel comfortable with its video performance if handled correctly.

BUT - I keep hearing rumors of the A7S iii... which wasn't announced at CES this year. Still, some people insist they will have it this year due to Panasonic's GH5s being released. What attracts me to the A7S ii, is its performance in low light, size and price. Although if the iii came out, I'd hope for 10 bit 4:2:2 instead of the 8 bit 4:2:0, although there's always external recorders...

In any event I had a couple Q's:

Does anybody have an idea if Sony A7s iii will actually be released this year?

I've started to look at the Ursa Mini Pro 4K - much cheaper than the Pro - though I hear some people have some major issues with it. But again, as a starter camera with the ability for high res workflow.

Any thoughts or experience with these options? I'd love to hear it.

PS. I'm definitely familiar with appropriate lighting so I understand how cinema cameras differ from the mirrorless and DSLRs out there in terms of lighting vs run and gun.

Thanks.
 
I have the Mini 4K. There is currently only three cameras in the Mini lineup: The 4K, 4.6K and the Pro. The 4K has 12 stops DR but also has a global shutter (important if you do VFX or gritty action films). The 4.6K and the Pro have 15 stops DR, but have a rolling shutter.
All that said, the Mini 4K and the Sony A7s cameras are completely different beasts. Sonys are great in low light situations, but really suffer from rolling shutter. The Mini 4K really needs light, but I feel produces more cinematic images. Really it all depends on what's important to you. For me, I really wanted a cinema camera and I wanted a global shutter. I bought the Mini 4K when it was released and I have no regrets.
 
Thanks for the info.

I would be in line with your thinking. I really want a cinema camera as well... but was getting some cold feet based on some of the criticisms regarding sensor issues with the Mini 4K.

One particular was hard to unpack, as I'd have to know who was writing the review (someone unaccustomed to lighting or not). It said that even with ample lighting, the Mini 4K had a very difficult time with shadows. So if you were making a scene with light and shadow, the darks looked awful, even if you were outside using sunlight and low ISO. What is your experience with this? A lot of DSLR users and mirrorless cameras like Sony are used to cranking up the ISO to ungodly numbers and having minimal noise. I'm not expecting that at all, but at the same time wanted to avoid the camera if it was requiring crazy lighting set-ups that would be out of the norm even for cinema cameras.

Do you own prime lenses with the Mini 4K, if so which ones?

The global shutter is definitely an attractive quality for me.
 
There's really no way to tell when the A7sIII will be announced, but you can get a rough idea by looking at past release dates on DPReview. I postulate that it will be announced somewhere between now and June. I hope I'm wrong, but I predict that it will only do 10bit through HDMI capture.
 
Imamacuser said:
There's really no way to tell when the A7sIII will be announced, but you can get a rough idea by looking at past release dates on DPReview. I postulate that it will be announced somewhere between now and June. I hope I'm wrong, but I predict that it will only do 10bit through HDMI capture.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Yeah I've read some of that too. Improvements but not involving internal 10bit recording. You'd think they'd match the GH5 though? If I'm not mistaken - isn't that 10bit?
 
Scotty Fox said:
Thanks for the info.

I would be in line with your thinking. I really want a cinema camera as well... but was getting some cold feet based on some of the criticisms regarding sensor issues with the Mini 4K.

One particular was hard to unpack, as I'd have to know who was writing the review (someone unaccustomed to lighting or not). It said that even with ample lighting, the Mini 4K had a very difficult time with shadows. So if you were making a scene with light and shadow, the darks looked awful, even if you were outside using sunlight and low ISO. What is your experience with this? A lot of DSLR users and mirrorless cameras like Sony are used to cranking up the ISO to ungodly numbers and having minimal noise. I'm not expecting that at all, but at the same time wanted to avoid the camera if it was requiring crazy lighting set-ups that would be out of the norm even for cinema cameras.

Do you own prime lenses with the Mini 4K, if so which ones?

The global shutter is definitely an attractive quality for me.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say you need crazy lighting setups. Here's a short I shot back when I first got it and was trying to figure it out. Since I wanted a dark look, I only used one softbox for lighting. I have two lenses, a cheap 50mm 1.8 and the Canon 24-105 f4. This short was shot on the 24-105mm at 1080p ProRes XQ (I think) ISO 400. I also did some candle light tests and was pleasantly surprised. This is the only low light video I have on YouTube though.
 
Oh, here's a short with all natural lighting. Pardon the CGI drone thing, I was learning 3D tracking. This was also all shot with the 24-105 at f4.
 
Thanks for sending those as a reference. Much appreciated.

Did BM ever take care of the horizontal line issue when the camera was cool (I think that's what you mentioned).. or is that still a thing with the sensor where you have to cycle the power.
 
The BM 4k doesn't have enough DR for my taste. The a7S II is great in lots of ways, the only downside I see is that AF is bad (no idea if you want that or not), and that the value of the camera on your hands may take a hit when the III is announced. But the same may happen to a BM if, for example, a new pocket is announced. I have high hopes for NAB this year regarding both an a7S III and a new pocket.

About waiting: my advice would be to always wait, unless you have something to shoot. And if you have stuff to shoot, then don't worry too much about what's about to come, becaue you can't shoot with a camera that doesn't exist.
 
Samuel - Yeah I know what you mean. I do have stuff I'd like to shoot, and really what's holding me back is not having a camera that I can go out and shoot with. Wasting money renting with the amount of content I want to film. I may just wait for NAB and if nothing is announced that's attractive, then go with the Ursa Mini 4K.

Another reason for this is lenses. If I invest in lenses it'd be nice to go with either EF or PL mounts, so down the road if I swap the body out for a better sensor, etc. (upgraded BM), the lenses will continue to be useful. Vs. a Sony, then if I jump to a BM later I'd have to purchase more lenses? I know there are adapters but something I was thinking of.

Morgan - Yeah the 8 bit I definitely want to stay away from. Not into the banding and fighting that in color grading. Also some of what I do involves vfx work. I did look at the GH5s, but some of the reviews seemed to place it in the, "not as good as a Sony and will be blown away as soon as the A7s iii comes out". I have seen the image for that in post work and it is nice. But I'm not a fan of the crop factor and again, getting back to lenses.

For the old BMC that's what i was thinking. The Ursa Mini Pro 4K. Cheaper and a good starter camera, but also getting a little bit more of an advanced image in comparison to others, forcing me to take lighting scenes seriously as I would do on a larger shoot.

What would be very annoying is if Sony came out with the A7s iii, but maintained it's 8 bit internal recording.
 
Sounds like a GH5s with a Speedbooster is a decent choice. You can stay with EF lenses, great low light and 10bit in a small body. Seems like a better overall tool than the BM 4k imho. RAW is great but light gathering is quite important and the BM's seem to be a little weak in this area.
 
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