Some Newb questions I need answers to.

J

JoeButch

Active member
Will this setup work and give me decent interior sound?

Tascam Dr-100 mkII plugged into a Canon 5d Mark III using the mic from the Tascam DR-100 for interiors. This is for a 48 hour film festival.

Don't think I should waste time recording this separately. Is what I'm suggesting even possible?

Second newb question. If I plug a shotgun mic into the DR-100 with it plugged into the 5d Mark III. Everything recorded ont he shotgun will be on the video file and be decent?

third really newb question. Is the purpose of 2 XLR plugs for using 2 mics?

(I have read the stickies.)
 
The built-in mics on the DR-100mkII are not suited for what you're doing. While it does have two cardioid mics as well as the two omnidirectionals, you have some challenges in placement and in recording.

How are you planning to get the mics close enough (within 20") to record decent sound? Actually, since they're cardioid, they actually need to be a little closer than a hypercardioid... so, within 12" really. If you put the recorder on the end of a fish pole, you have lost access to level control, metering, and recording control. It also means you have to extend your headphone cable for proper listening.

Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg. You have a stereo configuration of cardioid mics, so there's always going to be something off-axis. Dialog should be recorded in mono, since it's mixed in mono. Combining the two mics into a mono mix in post will cause problems of phase cancellation and increased ambient sound. Dropping one of the record channels will leave somebody within a multi-character dialog off-axis.

Then there's the problem of feeding your 5DmkIII with the DR-100mkII. It can be done using the 1/8" Line Out on the recorder to the 1/8" Mic In on the camera, but you have to have a padded cable to drop the output level. Otherwise, you'll end up with distorted sound in the camera. Again, this can be done and there are lots of folks out there who have done it, but you have to pay attention to what you're doing. It is nice that Canon added a headphone out to the 5DmkIII.

Plugging a shotgun into the recorder solves the problems created by using the built-in mics, though you still have the same issues mentioned if you feed the recorder to the camera. Honestly, even if you do use the recorder to feed the camera, it would be wise to run the recorder as a backup. The issue of matching sound and video files in post isn't as huge of a deal as it's often thought to be. While something like a 48hr film fest has its time constraints, and every minute counts, the solution is to have one member of your team assigned as a data wrangler whose job it is to ingest and organize the media during production, and to go ahead and match the audio and video files. That way, it's ready for the edit as soon as production wraps.

You're going to have to pay attention to monitoring. Again, it's nice that the 5DmkIII actually has a dedicated headphone out, but since you're running both camera and recorder (at least, you should be running the recorder at the same time), you need to figure out how you're going to keep an ear on sound. Best bet may be to have one person monitor the recorder, and the camera op/DoP monitor the camera. But you need to listen to your sound as you record. Never leave it to chance.

And yes, the two XLR inputs are for using two different input sources. It could be a second mic or, depending on the application, the 2-channel feed from a mixer.
 
The audio implementation of DSLR cameras is substandard. This is not a slam at the cameras, it's a fact. Let's face it, they are STILL cameras that are being "forced" into the role of a video camera.

If you already have a dedicated audio recorder like the DR-100mkII why would you want to plug it into the camera? From a technological (equipment quality) standpoint the audio from the dedicated audio recorder will be far superior. And as long as you keep detailed audio and video logs, and verbally slate/clapboard every take, sync is not a complicated issue; after all, they've been doing it that way since the 1920's. Having the camera audio as a guide track makes it that much easier. The use of softwares such as PluralEyes partially automates the process.

Yes, using a shotgun mic will assist in getting better sound.

And yes, you can use two mics, but it is not necessary to do so.

The real issue is not equipment but choosing the right equipment. Just as important are the techniques with which the equipment is used. You need to understand signal flow and gain-staging, and solid boom technique.

Just buying a recorder, a mic and making a DIY boom-pole does not give you good production sound. You also need to make sound a priority in your thinking. You need to scout your locations with you ears as well as your eyes. You should hire a professional, or at least a hungry up-and-comer. At the very least you need to assign someone on your set whose job is capturing solid production sound and nothing else, hopefully someone with some audio knowledge and at least a basic understanding of boom technique.
 
This has been very helpful. I don't have the Dr-100 yet. I was planning on purchasing it for this.

If Instead of the DR-100 I purchase a hypercardioid mic and a shotgun mic and plug them directly into the camera (with someone booming it) This would be a better option than DR-100 plugged into 5dmkiii I assume?

I'm hoping to actually find someone decent with sound so they can take this out of my things to do list and already put up a few posts about it in a few places but until then I'm making a worst case scenario plan.
 
You'll still need a boom-pole and wind protection.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode__NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html

As I previously posted, just having the gear does not give you good sound. You need to get the mic in close and properly aimed at all times; that's the job of the boom-op. You see, mounting a shotgun on the camera is a horrible idea; most of the time you record the sound coming out of the actors ear or the back of their head.

If you will be camera mounting the mic you would probably be better off with the Rode VideoMic Pro or something similar. I do not recommend this, but it would capture better sound than a camera mounted shotgun; it's the difference between really bad and moderately crappy.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/744768-REG/Rode_VIDEOMIC_PRO_VideoMic_Pro_Compact_Shotgun.html

What you have to keep in mind is that, just like building a house, you need specific tools for specific jobs; sure, you can use a wrench to pound in nails, but a hammer does a much better, neater, more accurate job.

Audio is just as complicated as visuals. Just as you need different lenses for different types of shots you use different mics in different situations. And just as you take a lot of care with your lighting to control shadows and enhance other things you should also be treating the set to tame acoustic problems.

"Sound is half of the experience." Every minute and dollar you spend on production sound will save you at least ten in audio post. Your audience will forgive mediocre visuals, they will never forgive bad sound.
 
On a personal level, I do not prefer any NTG series mic, though my experience is based on 1 and 2. The output is too low, without high end pre's to bring their level up to usable.

If you are willing to put some money into the fray.....get a mixer to put between your DR-100 and mic. Opens huge possibilities, let the mixer do most of the pre-amp work. Let the recorder just be a recorder. You set this up right, with the right gain staging....You will have really decent results that the post guy will kiss you for.

I use an H4n with a mixer and a ME64, and I keep getting return business (in Hollywood/LA no less), so I must be doing something right. Even was told "We bought a mic, but after testing........screw it, we had to hire you back"
 
JoeButch said:
This has been very helpful. I don't have the Dr-100 yet. I was planning on purchasing it for this.
Click to expand...

STOP! Before you buy the DR-100, consider the DR-40. I think it will be a much better recorder for you given your level of experience. Why? Well, it has a special 4 track recording mode called Dual Recording Mode. The DR-100 is only a 2 track recorder, which means you can't do this, while the DR-40 can:

Dual Recording records a second copy of your performance up to -12dB lower as a safety track. This mean if your recording gets accidentally distorted, you'll have a backup copy that isn't distorted.

Dual Recording works in addition to the peak limiting and low cut filter features which also prevent distortion.

The Dual Recording mode is perfect for recording your band live. Just set the unit to record and hit the stage without worrying about the recording getting blown out.

dr40_dualclip.jpg
Click to expand...

Okay, so you're probably not recording a band. But you are new to all of this, and it's easy to set levels too high and wreck your recording.

The DR-40 can also make use of the extra 2 tracks to record 2 channels of ambient sound via the built in recorders, and then 2 external channels that you send to it from mics, a mixer....

And although you probably won't use it, you can also overdub using the extra 2 channels.

I own a DR-40 and love it. Oh, and the DR-40 is now $125 cheaper than the DR-199. Amazon has the DR-40 for $154. Honestly, it's probably the most bang for my buck piece of equipment I've owned over the last few years.

As everyone else has said, you'll need a pad cable if you're plugging it into your camera, which IS a good idea in my opinion because it gives you a good reference for syncing the sound quickly.

Good luck!
 
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Found this chart online, and highlighted the two devices for easy comparison. Note the prices have dropped since this chart was made:

tascam.jpg
 
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