Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
well, sound really isn't my department, so at the risk of sounding like an idiot- we are using Sankin (sic?) mic on the camera partially because they are so short, and fistfulls of radio mics. So far pretty much the whole show is radio mic. Dennis Towns the sound guy has the hardest job of the whole crew. It really is amazing. The one stat for sound I do know is we are using A fostex PD-6 which records onto DVD for sound, as our master sound.
BTW- I ave done further research on "hidden menus" and learning more every day- suffice to say the "Adjustment menu" should only be used by an engineer with proper gear which means do not touch, but the "Diagnostic" menu is actually really useful once you figure it out.....
well, sound really isn't my department, so at the risk of sounding like an idiot- we are using Sankin (sic?) mic on the camera partially because they are so short, and fistfulls of radio mics. So far pretty much the whole show is radio mic. Dennis Towns the sound guy has the hardest job of the whole crew. It really is amazing. The one stat for sound I do know is we are using A fostex PD-6 which records onto DVD for sound, as our master sound.
BTW- I ave done further research on "hidden menus" and learning more every day- suffice to say the "Adjustment menu" should only be used by an engineer with proper gear which means do not touch, but the "Diagnostic" menu is actually really useful once you figure it out.....
ScreechingHalt
Well-known member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
Fascinating. I assume the Diagnostic menue is just that - tests on camera function? Care to enlighten us? I assume these diagnostics do not change any settings, simply report status?
Fascinating. I assume the Diagnostic menue is just that - tests on camera function? Care to enlighten us? I assume these diagnostics do not change any settings, simply report status?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=0#14 date=10/12/03 at 07:50:20]The show is being edited on Avid using the real time multicamera feature. Becuase of the very tight post schedule (start Thursdaym air Sunday) they need that to be real time. Common timecode is recorded as LTC to each of the cameras on Audio Channel 2 and decoded in post using the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. The audio is being recorded to a FOstex PD-6 and imported into the Avid as BWF files where the common timnecode is then used for AutoSync.
I am going to be writing an article on their post process with the editor of the series... stay tuned.
[/quote]
An article on time-code used for mini-DV is certainly in order. Pity you're editing on "big-daddy" Avid instead of "children's" Xpress or FCP.
It's been a long time that I have been trying to find a way that all "indie mortals" could take advantage of using a portable TC generator when shooting DV doing double-system audio, which is the right way to do sound.
My idea would not involve jamming when shooting, but using a wireless system sending TC to all cameras, using same frequency receiver. Of course, TC would be recorded on audio track 2 on all cameras.
The problem for indie projects is that budget editors like Avid Xpress or FCP or Vegas do not allow you to order the program to recognize an audio track as time-code that should be used as your syncing information, like grown-up people do.
DV camera manufacturers are also to blame for not allowing at least a TC out on their products, at least on the pro-sumer types. That would let us jam an external portable TC generator (like Horita or Dennecke) to the DV camera. Multiple cameras would still be a problem.
A whole new world of options is also available for low-budget projects that wish to do things right but lack the money. You can apply these TC + DV techniques using simpler recorders, like portable MDs or other cheaper coming options, recording TC on the camera's and the audio recorder Audio 2 channel.
If people wished to still use stereo tracks, at least on the audio recorder, there's still a way I can describe. But that involves some external help during post-production.
Carlos
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=0#14 date=10/12/03 at 07:50:20]The show is being edited on Avid using the real time multicamera feature. Becuase of the very tight post schedule (start Thursdaym air Sunday) they need that to be real time. Common timecode is recorded as LTC to each of the cameras on Audio Channel 2 and decoded in post using the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. The audio is being recorded to a FOstex PD-6 and imported into the Avid as BWF files where the common timnecode is then used for AutoSync.
I am going to be writing an article on their post process with the editor of the series... stay tuned.
[/quote]
An article on time-code used for mini-DV is certainly in order. Pity you're editing on "big-daddy" Avid instead of "children's" Xpress or FCP.
It's been a long time that I have been trying to find a way that all "indie mortals" could take advantage of using a portable TC generator when shooting DV doing double-system audio, which is the right way to do sound.
My idea would not involve jamming when shooting, but using a wireless system sending TC to all cameras, using same frequency receiver. Of course, TC would be recorded on audio track 2 on all cameras.
The problem for indie projects is that budget editors like Avid Xpress or FCP or Vegas do not allow you to order the program to recognize an audio track as time-code that should be used as your syncing information, like grown-up people do.
DV camera manufacturers are also to blame for not allowing at least a TC out on their products, at least on the pro-sumer types. That would let us jam an external portable TC generator (like Horita or Dennecke) to the DV camera. Multiple cameras would still be a problem.
A whole new world of options is also available for low-budget projects that wish to do things right but lack the money. You can apply these TC + DV techniques using simpler recorders, like portable MDs or other cheaper coming options, recording TC on the camera's and the audio recorder Audio 2 channel.
If people wished to still use stereo tracks, at least on the audio recorder, there's still a way I can describe. But that involves some external help during post-production.
Carlos
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
At some point when I have more time I will go into more detail of what I have learned, but for the moment- yes the diagnostic menu just "checks" things, it does not change things. The main parts are a thing that turns the audio channel indicators into "Signal quality meters" of either video, audio or both vid and aud signal quality. Low levels mean good signal quality. Higher levels mean worse quality all the way into red. A tape clog would spike into red. Gives you a general quality of the recording. Kind of like pro decks that have "Red channel condition" on serious clogs.
The lower half of the diagnostic page is an event log showing dates times and event codes of "issues" that have happened. Of course the event log times are based on you setting the internal date and time properly on your camera.
Slowly Gabe and I are training to become Jedi Masters of the DVX100.....
At some point when I have more time I will go into more detail of what I have learned, but for the moment- yes the diagnostic menu just "checks" things, it does not change things. The main parts are a thing that turns the audio channel indicators into "Signal quality meters" of either video, audio or both vid and aud signal quality. Low levels mean good signal quality. Higher levels mean worse quality all the way into red. A tape clog would spike into red. Gives you a general quality of the recording. Kind of like pro decks that have "Red channel condition" on serious clogs.
The lower half of the diagnostic page is an event log showing dates times and event codes of "issues" that have happened. Of course the event log times are based on you setting the internal date and time properly on your camera.
Slowly Gabe and I are training to become Jedi Masters of the DVX100.....
ScreechingHalt
Well-known member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
Yes, thanks Nate!
So some of the Diagnostic menue items change the mode of the display, this could be very useful indeed!
Yes, thanks Nate!
So some of the Diagnostic menue items change the mode of the display, this could be very useful indeed!
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
The very same process can be used on XPress Pro. It has read audio timecode, suports ADVANCED pulldown in both native DV25, had a real time capture for offline resolution at 28:1 (5 times more storage) allows for manual over ride of pulldown flags if they are missing so you can still capture natively, audio delay on the fly during capture, autosync, multiple timecode management for output, etc. It also has software multicam feature with the full function of multicamera with multigroups, only difference is that all sources will not play at once. Allo this for $1599. Big daddy functionality at an indy price.
The reason they went with a Meridien based system as I pointed out is because of the 1.5 days of post time with 5 camera sources - they needed them to play back in real time.
Michael
The very same process can be used on XPress Pro. It has read audio timecode, suports ADVANCED pulldown in both native DV25, had a real time capture for offline resolution at 28:1 (5 times more storage) allows for manual over ride of pulldown flags if they are missing so you can still capture natively, audio delay on the fly during capture, autosync, multiple timecode management for output, etc. It also has software multicam feature with the full function of multicamera with multigroups, only difference is that all sources will not play at once. Allo this for $1599. Big daddy functionality at an indy price.
The reason they went with a Meridien based system as I pointed out is because of the 1.5 days of post time with 5 camera sources - they needed them to play back in real time.
Michael
Carlos_E._Martinez
Well-known member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#28 date=10/16/03 at 18:07:30]The very same process can be used on XPress Pro. It has read audio timecode, suports ADVANCED pulldown in both native DV25, [/quote]
Can it do this? You record TC as a linear track in audio 2 on your mini-DV camera; then transfer video & audio through 1394 into your PC; then order DVXpress to consider that audio track as the time code for that image. Will it do that?
I'm not aware of the latest changes in DVXpress, and since I'm a PC man I want it to work. I knew the Pro version can handle 24p, and it's good to know it can use Advanced too.
As I'm waiting for a serious implementation of TC in lower priced equipment, if at least one side of the chain takes care of their share, then we are in the right direction.
Carlos
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#28 date=10/16/03 at 18:07:30]The very same process can be used on XPress Pro. It has read audio timecode, suports ADVANCED pulldown in both native DV25, [/quote]
Can it do this? You record TC as a linear track in audio 2 on your mini-DV camera; then transfer video & audio through 1394 into your PC; then order DVXpress to consider that audio track as the time code for that image. Will it do that?
I'm not aware of the latest changes in DVXpress, and since I'm a PC man I want it to work. I knew the Pro version can handle 24p, and it's good to know it can use Advanced too.
As I'm waiting for a serious implementation of TC in lower priced equipment, if at least one side of the chain takes care of their share, then we are in the right direction.
Carlos
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
Xpress DV does not have the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. Xpress DV was out before the camera hit the market and workflows were designed to support it. Xpress Pro is the Avid product that deals with DVX100 natively as well as double system audio workflows. It is an easy upgrade from Xpress to Xpress Pro.
Michael
Xpress DV does not have the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. Xpress DV was out before the camera hit the market and workflows were designed to support it. Xpress Pro is the Avid product that deals with DVX100 natively as well as double system audio workflows. It is an easy upgrade from Xpress to Xpress Pro.
Michael
Carlos_E._Martinez
Well-known member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#30 date=10/17/03 at 05:50:55]Xpress DV does not have the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. Xpress DV was out before the camera hit the market and workflows were designed to support it. Xpress Pro is the Avid product that deals with DVX100 natively as well as double system audio workflows. It is an easy upgrade from Xpress to Xpress Pro.
[/quote]
Sorry to quote you again, but you mean Xpress Pro would allow ordering it to read audio as time code?
That's a very important feature that would deserve being mentioned out loud.
IMO doing double-system audio is the only serious way for location audio, but not having time-code capability on the DV camera, one that you can't control, is a serious defect for serious work.
If Xpress Pro deals with that problem then we may have an option for real quality work.
Carlos
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#30 date=10/17/03 at 05:50:55]Xpress DV does not have the "Read Audio Timecode" feature. Xpress DV was out before the camera hit the market and workflows were designed to support it. Xpress Pro is the Avid product that deals with DVX100 natively as well as double system audio workflows. It is an easy upgrade from Xpress to Xpress Pro.
[/quote]
Sorry to quote you again, but you mean Xpress Pro would allow ordering it to read audio as time code?
That's a very important feature that would deserve being mentioned out loud.
IMO doing double-system audio is the only serious way for location audio, but not having time-code capability on the DV camera, one that you can't control, is a serious defect for serious work.
If Xpress Pro deals with that problem then we may have an option for real quality work.
Carlos
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
YES. Xpress Pro will allow you to read audio timecode recorded as LTC on either of the audio channels captured over FireWire into the system. It is then decoced as metdata and added to a TC column to be used a common timecode refernce point for the AutoSync process.
YES. Xpress Pro will allow you to read audio timecode recorded as LTC on either of the audio channels captured over FireWire into the system. It is then decoced as metdata and added to a TC column to be used a common timecode refernce point for the AutoSync process.
Carlos_E._Martinez
Well-known member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#32 date=10/17/03 at 08:44:47]YES. Xpress Pro will allow you to read audio timecode recorded as LTC on either of the audio channels captured over FireWire into the system. It is then decoced as metdata and added to a TC column to be used a common timecode refernce point for the AutoSync process. [/quote]
Excellent news!
So then we can start talking on ways to do sound for DV in a completely professional way. That is using double-system audio.
For those not familiar with it, double-system audio is when you record your audio track on a separate recorder. In order to do that you have to have two references.
One is sync, which using clock referenced units like DV, MD or DAT, is quite accurate. MD can secure about +/- 1 frame for 15 minutes, DAT for 30 minutes. In any case it's unusual, except on a concert, that you will be recording ever a continuous take that is longer than 10 minutes.
The second reference is something that will let you sync your image and audio together. The most known and primitive way was the old clapper, but you can clap your hands too. But you also needed to write down every take to identify it and voice that data on your audio track too. Using time code, which you must record on video and audio tracks simultaneously, substitutes the clapper and provides the ID information.
There are two ways you might do this in DV, considering you don't have access to the camera's internal TC: use separate TC generators or transmitting the TC wireless to your DV camera. In both cases you would record your TC on audio channel 2.
In the audio recorder you can record that TC track on a specific TC channel, as on HHB or Fostex DAT portable machines, or you can record it also on audio channel 2.
As I haven't done it yet myself on the DVXpress I can't say how you will have to process that audio + TC to go into your PC/MAC, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. Once you are inside with both you proceed accordingly to your program to join video and audio.
Carlos
[quote author=MichaelP link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#32 date=10/17/03 at 08:44:47]YES. Xpress Pro will allow you to read audio timecode recorded as LTC on either of the audio channels captured over FireWire into the system. It is then decoced as metdata and added to a TC column to be used a common timecode refernce point for the AutoSync process. [/quote]
Excellent news!
So then we can start talking on ways to do sound for DV in a completely professional way. That is using double-system audio.
For those not familiar with it, double-system audio is when you record your audio track on a separate recorder. In order to do that you have to have two references.
One is sync, which using clock referenced units like DV, MD or DAT, is quite accurate. MD can secure about +/- 1 frame for 15 minutes, DAT for 30 minutes. In any case it's unusual, except on a concert, that you will be recording ever a continuous take that is longer than 10 minutes.
The second reference is something that will let you sync your image and audio together. The most known and primitive way was the old clapper, but you can clap your hands too. But you also needed to write down every take to identify it and voice that data on your audio track too. Using time code, which you must record on video and audio tracks simultaneously, substitutes the clapper and provides the ID information.
There are two ways you might do this in DV, considering you don't have access to the camera's internal TC: use separate TC generators or transmitting the TC wireless to your DV camera. In both cases you would record your TC on audio channel 2.
In the audio recorder you can record that TC track on a specific TC channel, as on HHB or Fostex DAT portable machines, or you can record it also on audio channel 2.
As I haven't done it yet myself on the DVXpress I can't say how you will have to process that audio + TC to go into your PC/MAC, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. Once you are inside with both you proceed accordingly to your program to join video and audio.
Carlos
Carlos_E._Martinez
Well-known member
Put the matter where it belongs
Put the matter where it belongs
As on another thread I started on this News section, I am thinking these matters we are discussing now should move to the Technical section.
Don't you think? How can we do that? Start a new thread there?
Carlos
Put the matter where it belongs
As on another thread I started on this News section, I am thinking these matters we are discussing now should move to the Technical section.
Don't you think? How can we do that? Start a new thread there?
Carlos
ScreechingHalt
Well-known member
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
[quote author=Carlos_E._Martinez link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#34 date=10/17/03 at 09:54:47]As on another thread I started on this News section, I am thinking these matters we are discussing now should move to the Technical section.
Don't you think? How can we do that? Start a new thread there?
Carlos[/quote]
Since this thread evolved from news into more technical stuff over time, I suggest leaving it here, starting a new thread in the appropriate forum and then embedding a link to this original thread for newcomers who wish to catch up. We could also put a link to the new thread in this one. Let me know if you want me to do it for you. It might be best placed in the Avid forum unless the info is applicable to most editing systems.
This thread can continue with the great News/Chat stuff.
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
[quote author=Carlos_E._Martinez link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#34 date=10/17/03 at 09:54:47]As on another thread I started on this News section, I am thinking these matters we are discussing now should move to the Technical section.
Don't you think? How can we do that? Start a new thread there?
Carlos[/quote]
Since this thread evolved from news into more technical stuff over time, I suggest leaving it here, starting a new thread in the appropriate forum and then embedding a link to this original thread for newcomers who wish to catch up. We could also put a link to the new thread in this one. Let me know if you want me to do it for you. It might be best placed in the Avid forum unless the info is applicable to most editing systems.
This thread can continue with the great News/Chat stuff.
Carlos_E._Martinez
Well-known member
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
[quote author=ScreechingHalt link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#35 date=10/17/03 at 19:03:58]
Since this thread evolved from news into more technical stuff over time, I suggest leaving it here, starting a new thread in the appropriate forum and then embedding a link to this original thread for newcomers who wish to catch up. We could also put a link to the new thread in this one. Let me know if you want me to do it for you. It might be best placed in the Avid forum unless the info is applicable to most editing systems.
This thread can continue with the great News/Chat stuff.[/quote]
Yes, Screech. It would be best to move this thread to Technical. Please do it.
What Avid Forum is that you talk about?
In any case, even if this technique is for now only applicable on origin-Avid systems, I think the other NLEs will head that way soon.
This TC question for DV has taken too long for being taken care of, and this maybe the beginning of a new time to deal with quality sound for DV.
But there are other things that are more general that could be discussed in the Technical area that may be used as alternatives on other programs until TC gets there.
Carlos
Re: Put the matter where it belongs
[quote author=ScreechingHalt link=board=nws;num=1063235743;start=25#35 date=10/17/03 at 19:03:58]
Since this thread evolved from news into more technical stuff over time, I suggest leaving it here, starting a new thread in the appropriate forum and then embedding a link to this original thread for newcomers who wish to catch up. We could also put a link to the new thread in this one. Let me know if you want me to do it for you. It might be best placed in the Avid forum unless the info is applicable to most editing systems.
This thread can continue with the great News/Chat stuff.[/quote]
Yes, Screech. It would be best to move this thread to Technical. Please do it.
What Avid Forum is that you talk about?
In any case, even if this technique is for now only applicable on origin-Avid systems, I think the other NLEs will head that way soon.
This TC question for DV has taken too long for being taken care of, and this maybe the beginning of a new time to deal with quality sound for DV.
But there are other things that are more general that could be discussed in the Technical area that may be used as alternatives on other programs until TC gets there.
Carlos
skyy38
Active member
Re: Soderbergh and Clooney dump XL1 for DVX100.
Supposedly though they are going for the "raw" look, but in truth they are making a lot of the footage look worse than a $250 camcorder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Raw" to me is just doublespeak for either"lazy" or "unskilled".
That's why we have more crap than fine work on the web.
The camera is capable of so much more than what they are doing with it, I just hope Soderbergh doesn't give the DVX100s a bad rep like he did to the XL1s in Full Frontal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Full Frontal" was a joke masquerading as an "endorsement" deal and a bad one at that.I was thinking that Soderbergh was actually going to use the XL1s in a filmic way on the whole movie.Excuse me for my assumptions,but I'm sure more than a few other folks thought the same way.He could have used a D8 for the "real" parts of the movie but,there was some extra $$$ in the offing to
nly problem is,when you accept cash at the risk of your credibility,for all the wrong reasons,everybody suffers.I'm sure Canon is glad to be rid of him,because right now they're offering that fat rebate on the purchase of an XL1S.Call me crazy,but I think Soderbergh disapppointed a lot of people with this deal.
Supposedly though they are going for the "raw" look, but in truth they are making a lot of the footage look worse than a $250 camcorder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Raw" to me is just doublespeak for either"lazy" or "unskilled".
That's why we have more crap than fine work on the web.
The camera is capable of so much more than what they are doing with it, I just hope Soderbergh doesn't give the DVX100s a bad rep like he did to the XL1s in Full Frontal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Full Frontal" was a joke masquerading as an "endorsement" deal and a bad one at that.I was thinking that Soderbergh was actually going to use the XL1s in a filmic way on the whole movie.Excuse me for my assumptions,but I'm sure more than a few other folks thought the same way.He could have used a D8 for the "real" parts of the movie but,there was some extra $$$ in the offing to
nly problem is,when you accept cash at the risk of your credibility,for all the wrong reasons,everybody suffers.I'm sure Canon is glad to be rid of him,because right now they're offering that fat rebate on the purchase of an XL1S.Call me crazy,but I think Soderbergh disapppointed a lot of people with this deal.i don't know about other folks reading this thread, but as for me i'd like to know more about the sync'ing of cameras so that they all have one timecode and preferrably wireless. we shoot three cam's and soon a 4th and presently we have to clap and would prefer being able to just have some device transmit the TC to all the cam's (that of course would have to have receivers) like we presently do our audio. can someone discuss wireless TC generation, receiving, and recording?
thanks in advance.
thanks in advance.