FS7: So what IS the OMB ENG solution..

Run&Gun said:
I have the IBE HDx35 adapter for my C300 and F55 so that I can use my existing 2/3" HD glass and it has been worth every penny when I've needed it. No, you're not gonna get super shallow dof(your FoV and DoF are the same as on 2/3" cam), but you get zoom ranges that do not exist with s35 glass and that gives you speed, flexibility and convenience. And in some cases a top-end(reach) that you can't attain easily or affordablly with s35. I used the adapter with my W/A zoom on my C300 to shoot two days of cycling features for network leading into the Paralympics and I would have not been able do what I did as quickly or easily without a lens that had the range of my 13x4.5. I've also used my 22x7.8 several times on my F55 for (American) football and some other stuff. The results are good, especially with good glass.

I haven't used it since I bought my 17-120, but if I needed the versatility of one of those lenses, especially my long lens, I would break it out in a heartbeat. I feel very fortunate that I have an incredible selection of glass at my disposal to use, from still lenses, broadcast HD lenses with extenders, CN-E primes and even a very nice Cine Servo zoom. The weakest link in my gear package is ME.
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Mr RunGun. Thankyou, this is all interesting experience.

Are the images sharp with this adapter? (like HD sharp)

Ive had a chum in today basically bigging up this solution , quality of the zoom motors, ability to go to canon/red or 2/3 cam (!) and some other things that I have forgotten! (edit.. it was getting fov something like 19-200 if I remember right)
 
So the adapter options seem to be..

1) HD35 =$6k (too much for me)
2) S16 MTF =-$2k
3) No glass = $400

The S16 seems flawed to me as the camera loses so much quality, anyone tried the no-glass, doubler engaged approach?
 
Everyone has there own way of working, but for me the idea of switching glass in the middle of documentary shooting is not good , often your trying to give the editor coverage within a single event - i.e. a wide, some mediums and perhaps some tights if you can. That requires one piece of glass otherwise you are very likely to miss important details. Usually i go with a 24-70 on speed booster (17-50) and a Tamron at that for IS. It works fine but its not par focal and you don't have much reach. Similar to the 17-55 concept and I can understand anyone preferring the Fuji.. That is a reasonable solution if the reach is not important but the 18-110 sure sounds attractive. I will probably have my Tamron in a nearby bag or case if I need an F2 but otherwise I guess I will buy the 18-110. For interviews I will use the 70-200 series II with a speed booster or Zeiss 85 and 50 1. 4 primes ( just got a Milvus 50mm) . That way I have what I need for that soft background everyone wants. I guess I'll keep that little 18-200 Sony if I really need reach despite it being so slow and not the greatest IQ. It does work though . I've used it at trade show events and in Custom mode even at f6.8 it does the job.
 
Option 4. Sell your FS7 and buy a Varicam.

Personally, I don't see an issue with changing lenses on doco shoots, live events are a different matter, but I've never shot a doco where I didn't have time to swap a lens.
 
morgan_moore said:
Because the new language is a mix of RnG mayhem mixed with time-lapse, slomo, and 50 1.4 sit down interview work (also a must in the dark) - all graded from Slog/or another WDR codec .

Sure an F23/F800 (?) and those 2/3 primes could get this maybe.. but not cheap

Also with a 2/3 zoom you have crop mode and reach at sports maybe on the FS7

instead of a zoom the other option is to have a 'grab cam' like the XC15 for the moments when it 'kicks off'

FS7 and a slow zoom plus a couple of tiny 'art' primes brings a unique set of looks in a carry on size package.

S
Click to expand...

Interesting conversation. This is exactly my situation. I am mainly hired to fully
shoot and edit promo videos. Pretty much entirely one man band, although I occasionally
have the budget to hire an assistant. And the videos I make are almost exactly what you
talk about, a strange mix of timelapse (sometimes motion timelapse) mixed with slow motion
footage, 'talking head' interviews (mostly shot with shallow depth of field for the current
'popular look of the day' that most clients want) and then some total R&G mayhem for some
B-Roll/cover shots. Something usually where you are just trailing along, and have no ability
to direct any of the participants to repeat action or anything and the client just expects you to
get good coverage. Something like
"Follow the commissioner of the Dept. of Education as he tours the classroom. We will need
some good wide establishing shots, and some medium shots of him 'working' with students.
And don't forget the 'detail' shots (extreme close ups.) By the way, he will be in the classroom
for exactly 5 minutes so make sure you don't miss anything."

My current way to deal with this is to have a different lens (or choice of lenses) for each different task.

Timelapse
Usually use a 10-20mm F3.5 for the great wide angle look.
Occasionally I will use my 50-150 F2.8 for a tighter timelapse, and then
throw a 'zoom blur' transition between the wide and tight shots of
the timelapse

Slow motion
18-35 F1.8, 17-50 F2.8, 15-150 F2.8
Usually I am prone to shooting slow motion a little wider but I can use the
50-150 if I want

'Talking head'/Interviews
18-35 F1.8 or 50-150 F2.8, depending on if I want a 'wider' look with more background
or a 'more traditional' look to my interview. Also, I will sometimes use both of these, one
on each camera for a 2 camera set up....maybe one camera on a 'looping' slider.

R&G mayhem
Here I will often use the Sony 18-105 F4 (this is where the newer Sony 18-110 F4
could come in handy) because most of what I shoot is in HD, not 4K.....and the
distortion from this lens is corrected for in HD. Also it has face detection autofocus
and IS which can be useful in these situations. The other option is to use the
Sigma (or Canon) 24-105 F4 on a speedbooster. This would give you something similar
to a 17-70 F2.8 on a Super 35 sensor. What really interests me about this, is that if you
put this lens, with speedbooster on a FS5, you would also be able to engage 'clear image
zoom' which is reportedly pretty good. Even if it couldn't give you the claimed '2x zoom ratio'
with 'no loss of quality', it might be able to give you a little more reach than the 70mm end and
every little bit helps.

Or I could just sell everything else I have and maybe make enough to put a downpayment on
the 19-90 F2.8 Cabrio.......
 
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morgan_moore said:
Mr RunGun. Thankyou, this is all interesting experience.

Are the images sharp with this adapter? (like HD sharp)

Ive had a chum in today basically bigging up this solution , quality of the zoom motors, ability to go to canon/red or 2/3 cam (!) and some other things that I have forgotten! (edit.. it was getting fov something like 19-200 if I remember right)
Click to expand...

It looks good in HD. I haven't tried it in 4K. I think I have some back-ups of stuff I've shot with the 22x on my 55 in 23.98p and slo-mo. If I can dig it up, I may do a frame grab and post.

The ability to use stuff on multiple cams, as your friend talks about, is huge, too. That's the main reason I went with the IBE adapter over the Sony B4 adapter. The IBE has the UMS system that allows you to swap mounts. It comes "native" PL, but I bought the EF mount for my C300 and the FZ for the 55 so I don't have to use the PL adapter and can swap it between the 55 and 300 with just twisting the mount on/off instead of using a screwdriver to remove and attach the inner portion of the PL mount. It has an E mount available, too. I'm also shipping my 17-120 off next week to have the eUMS mount system installed(will retain LDS contacts and functionality with PL and EF mounts) so that I can use it on my 55 and 300, too. Then the HDx35 and 17-120 will both be able to use any of the UMS mounts and be "native" PL, Canon EF, Nikon F, Sony FZ, Sony E and MFT. That's pretty damn good versatility, if you ask me.
 
The 2k mode on these cameras is great. So I've actually been quite surprised that so few people seem to put it to use with S16mm zooms in order to get the focal-range they want, in an manageable size/weight. Something like a Canon 8-64mm T/2.4 would cover most people's run-n-gun needs, or an 11-165mm T/2.5 for mega range coverage. Then just pair the camera with some cheap, fast primes for sit down interviews where you don't need to be changing focus and simply want an attractive portrait lens.
 
Grug said:
The 2k mode on these cameras is great. So I've actually been quite surprised that so few people seem to put it to use with S16mm zooms in order to get the focal-range they want, in an manageable size/weight. Something like a Canon 8-64mm T/2.4 would cover most people's run-n-gun needs, or an 11-165mm T/2.5 for mega range coverage. Then just pair the camera with some cheap, fast primes for sit down interviews where you don't need to be changing focus and simply want an attractive portrait lens.
Click to expand...


I was enthused about this until reading a user from the Sony forum saying the chromatic aberration was horrendous. Maybe that was just the copy of the lens that individual was using?


Morgan- I think the answer is the Sony 18-110mm, despite all of its shortcomings and bugaboos. Particularly if servo is a consideration. Not only is it one of the few manual iris zooms that can go from sub-20mm to +100mm, it is for all practical purposes THE only one under $20k. It does give you servo. Most other zooms do not. It does give you manual iris. It is of practical physical length and weight. It is of relatively practical price. If it is damaged you aren't going to be as emotionally devastated as you are if you own a Cabrio 19-90mm and it is damaged on a shoot. It is more practical than the whole B4 adapter thing. The optical quality and the speed ( f/4 ) is going to suffice for 90% of my shooting. It can serve for 4K. Unlike a super-16 lens solution, it doesn't necessitate center-scan. It doesn't even require any adapter. In a down and dirty world, it could live on the camera and fulfill the role of everything-lens...interview lens included.

As unsexy as it is and as unexciting a purchase as it may be, it is the utilitarian choice and the "best we got" for an all-purpose zoom that doesn't break the bank or the back.
 
alaskacameradude said:
Interesting conversation. This is exactly my situation. I am mainly hired to fully
shoot and edit promo videos. Pretty much entirely one man band, although I occasionally
have the budget to hire an assistant. And the videos I make are almost exactly what you
talk about, a strange mix of timelapse (sometimes motion timelapse) mixed with slow motion
footage, 'talking head' interviews (mostly shot with shallow depth of field for the current
'popular look of the day' that most clients want) and then some total R&G mayhem for some
B-Roll/cover shots. Something usually where you are just trailing along, and have no ability
to direct any of the participants to repeat action or anything and the client just expects you to
get good coverage. Something like
"Follow the commissioner of the Dept. of Education as he tours the classroom. We will need
some good wide establishing shots, and some medium shots of him 'working' with students.
And don't forget the 'detail' shots (extreme close ups.) By the way, he will be in the classroom
for exactly 5 minutes so make sure you don't miss anything."

My current way to deal with this is to have a different lens (or choice of lenses) for each different task.

Timelapse
Usually use a 10-20mm F3.5 for the great wide angle look.
Occasionally I will use my 50-150 F2.8 for a tighter timelapse, and then
throw a 'zoom blur' transition between the wide and tight shots of
the timelapse

Slow motion
18-35 F1.8, 17-50 F2.8, 15-150 F2.8
Usually I am prone to shooting slow motion a little wider but I can use the
50-150 if I want

'Talking head'/Interviews
18-35 F1.8 or 50-150 F2.8, depending on if I want a 'wider' look with more background
or a 'more traditional' look to my interview. Also, I will sometimes use both of these, one
on each camera for a 2 camera set up....maybe one camera on a 'looping' slider.

R&G mayhem
Here I will often use the Sony 18-105 F4 (this is where the newer Sony 18-110 F4
could come in handy) because most of what I shoot is in HD, not 4K.....and the
distortion from this lens is corrected for in HD. Also it has face detection autofocus
and IS which can be useful in these situations. The other option is to use the
Sigma (or Canon) 24-105 F4 on a speedbooster. This would give you something similar
to a 17-70 F2.8 on a Super 35 sensor. What really interests me about this, is that if you
put this lens, with speedbooster on a FS5, you would also be able to engage 'clear image
zoom' which is reportedly pretty good. Even if it couldn't give you the claimed '2x zoom ratio'
with 'no loss of quality', it might be able to give you a little more reach than the 70mm end and
every little bit helps.

Or I could just sell everything else I have and maybe make enough to put a downpayment on
the 19-90 F2.8 Cabrio.......
Click to expand...

On jobs like this I tend to stick 2 x DSLRs up for timelapse.

Stick a speedbooster on the camera and alternate between 28-85 and 80-200 and that will get me everything from interview to b roll and slomo.
 
Interesting chatter.

Seems that it is swinging like this..

-some cant see the need for this lens for their shooting style. fine.
-some cant see that just getting a 2/3 camera would work for the shooting style. fine.

-the sony lens is a great compromise of price/performance and a simple off the shelf 'buy it now, be sorted for the life of the FS7 at least with a get out of jail card'.

-With an expensive adapter a really interesting world of 2/3 glass opens up and can be utilised on many cameras and configurations, this discussion has revolved around the 'ENG wide' but of course there are super telephoto 2/3 options too and doubtless various FIZ controller systems that can offer options for maybe fully remote operation on a jib or Russian Arm

On a side note.. what are the remote options for the sony lens? Fs5+sony lens on a jib gives control of what and how?

One zone that seems unexplored is the poor mans 2/3 option of doubler engaged, no glass adapter, which seems to cover about 3k of the 4k chip.

As with all gear choices I feel one needs to define ones own personal spec and really understand where you want to go.

Want to be tidy on a trade show floor? Sony zoom
Want to invest in some quite exotic and expensive world that will fit red, varicam fs7/5/f5/f55? 2/3 HD zooms and expensive adapter

(a note here is there are some amazing 2/3 cine zooms (no doubler) knocking about)

And the grey zone.. no-glass adapter and doubler engaged.
 
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For thos interested in the 'S16' options I did a video a year ago, it is really badly captioned.. but basically it shows that using crop mode gives a similar drop in quality to using the HFR mode of the camera, it also shows that IMO the HFR crop is better than HFR full scan.

Certainly 3k of 4k would be better than crop mode.

 
The takeaway from all of this is that everything is a compromise and that's why the expensive stuff is expensive. It's not always exponentially better in terms of image quality but it reduces the compromises.

So where do you make the compromises that impact you or your wallet the least? For me it's switching out a couple of lenses and/or zooming with my feet. For others it might be renting lenses when they need to. For others it might be saying no to a particular kind of work.
 
Yes that is it.. to get the right kit one needs to know what you are actually trying to shoot for who and on what budget.

This thread helps me see that especially the comments from RnGun who clearly gets good perfomance from a high budget 2/3 package.. but still bought the 17-120 too.. nice place to be!

--
As for zooming with feet, well sometimes one cannot do that, not laziness but being penned in somewhere for other reasons. Like Sgt Atkins doesnt want you just wandering around on his parade ground.
 
Yep absolutely and I get it's different for everyone but for 90% of the stuff I do it's not a problem that the 200mm can't sort out. When it is I'll invent a convoluted excuse as to why it's not my fault :)

Although I still sort of want that Sigma 150-600.
 
Ben Scott said:
Although I still sort of want that Sigma 150-600.
Click to expand...

Ive got my 50-300 which I use in crop mode - the 50-300 is maybe 20% bigger than an 80-200 and is man portable (goes in the biggest lopro pouch) and can be accessed from ones 'belt kit' and I can handhold it (slomo!). My 400-2.8 needs its own case/rucksack and really puts you in assistant world and certainly needs sticks.

Id think through the implications of a 'super tele' mainly on lugging it about and getting it on your rig.. my 50-300 works with a lens support, my 400 needs mounting to the sticks and a naked camera hanging off it.

It is therefore a 5min lens change!

S
 
Well as of about an hour ago I no longer own an FS7 and the incoming big boy camera will have lens support in the kit :)

Would probably stay in the boot of the car until called upon though.
 
Thank.

Red for proper jobs and GH5 for little jobs/timelapse.

No ETA on the Red still. Ordered in December :(

GH5 should be here next week.
 
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