Barry_Green
Moderator
An 8gb Ultra II is $725 at B&H. I can only guess what the Extreme III would cost -- probably nearer $1000. An Ultra II wouldn't have the offload speed, but it should have the speed for 720/24p or DVCPRO50...
..So Sony loses twice?
- Thread starter Green Hornet
- Start date
Well, "griping or complaining" sounds negative, doesn't it? My first post was inspired by what I took to be many others raising valid, indisputable points about P2 and being met with "well that's the way the world is so just be grateful for what you've got". I find that irritating whether it's said about cameras or by politicians regarding the general state of the country. It was not intended to be "griping or complaining" about such as the HVX, rather general points that solid state needn't mean P2, and if it wasn't that could be to the advantage of many.Barry_Green said:
You may have access to such people. I don't. My hope is that people who do have such access may read these forums and I and others may help to shape their opinions. Your last paragraph (re Spec-Comm) encourages me that maybe, just maybe, that's happened. Maybe my breath and energy hasn't been wasted?Barry_Green said:
More generally, I can well see why there may be reluctance to have interchangeable drives within such as the Firestore, largely for reliability reasons. Equally, I can well see why you would want such a thing. I feel a more realistic option is to hope for more devices like MCEs Quickstream - simpler and cheaper than the Firestore, not doing complicated little used functions, but instead just providing a simple means of recording video for ingest to a computer. Which I suspect is all many people want.
Panasonic has a huge hit on its hands with the HVX and a year from now, Sony will be an after thought. Let's face it if you're willing to spend between $3K and $4K(FX1 and Z1 prices), on a highend prosumer camera are you not willing to spend a little more $5K (HVX price) to get so much more. 5 years from now the HVX will still be selling strong. I honestly don't believe that FX1 or Z1 will be? Those cameras are obsolete as of Dec 29th and the word is just beginning to spread.
Life may be that simple if you are a self contained operation. I like many others am not, normally my work is as one link in a chain, and in this case non consumable media makes any such offering a non starter. For such as an average broadcaster it is not a case of the money for one or two cards, but probably at least ten or twenty per camera, and even then workflow problems are worsened in some ways, albeit eased in others.
In the last year in the UK I understand one major broadcaster has been required to update a large amount of equipment, mainly to enable 16:9 SD. A couple of years ago the good money was betting on whether they'd go for XDCAM or P2. In fact, they've just bought a large consignment of 2/3" DVCAM cameras. The alternatives were just seen to have too many problems associated with them at the moment, and the more I think about it, the more I come to think they've probably done the right thing. In SD the hybrid concept of the HVX (tape AND memory) I consider brilliant - what a shame there is no comparable offering in the P2 pro 2/3" range.
It's media being consumable rather than capital spend means that the Z1 and HD100 will retain one key advantage for some customers, and whilst I do expect the HVX to make many sales to others such as yourself with different workflow needs, this fact alone means that neither of the other two cameras should be seen as at all obsolete.
It's also worth noting that the Z1 has been on sale for a while now. I can't believe that Sony hasn't been at least thinking of it's successor for a while now. It'll be interesting to see what that brings, and how far in the future it is. I'll agree with you that 5 years from now, the Z1 is unlikely to be selling well - I doubt Sony have any expectations that it will be. In the meantime, I'm sure it's been making them a lot of money.
In the last year in the UK I understand one major broadcaster has been required to update a large amount of equipment, mainly to enable 16:9 SD. A couple of years ago the good money was betting on whether they'd go for XDCAM or P2. In fact, they've just bought a large consignment of 2/3" DVCAM cameras. The alternatives were just seen to have too many problems associated with them at the moment, and the more I think about it, the more I come to think they've probably done the right thing. In SD the hybrid concept of the HVX (tape AND memory) I consider brilliant - what a shame there is no comparable offering in the P2 pro 2/3" range.
It's media being consumable rather than capital spend means that the Z1 and HD100 will retain one key advantage for some customers, and whilst I do expect the HVX to make many sales to others such as yourself with different workflow needs, this fact alone means that neither of the other two cameras should be seen as at all obsolete.
It's also worth noting that the Z1 has been on sale for a while now. I can't believe that Sony hasn't been at least thinking of it's successor for a while now. It'll be interesting to see what that brings, and how far in the future it is. I'll agree with you that 5 years from now, the Z1 is unlikely to be selling well - I doubt Sony have any expectations that it will be. In the meantime, I'm sure it's been making them a lot of money.
Steve Connor
Member
Lduke32 said:
Not true at all, good as the HVX seems, it's workflow doesn't suit every project just yet and Sony have enormous momentum. Plus the fact a massive company like Sony aren't going to let marketshare slip away without a fight. I fully expect to see new improved HDV models from Sony at NAB this year.
Having said that the HVX looks great and if it lives up to the hype I'll be buying one.
Steve Connor said:
Time will tell the difference. Bottom line is the nine month of big hoopla was not generated by Panasonic but by people who show the spec and then they dought that Panasonic will live upto the expectation. But if this is Sony then people will automatically belive it is true. THis is Bias agaist the Panasonic. I am tired of this Sony Cry baby they should start just admitiing they got a looser written all over there investments.
From what I heard that 1200 unit Back order without actually seeing a product is unheard of. Sony is scared so should be there followers beacuse now they have to wait for something to brag about until sony comes with Memory stick to stick it in there A......
Well the countdown begins for the death of HDV a non compatible format even between three different HDV we have. Are we looking for to deal with short lived HDV or long live and Broadcast supported P2 for a long run.
Steve Connor
Member
I think you'll find the FX1 and Z1 have already been a success and if they never release another HDV camera then I'm sure they've made their money.
Don't get me wrong I'm not a Sony apologist, I want companies like Panasonic and JVC to provide good alternatives, and I'm looking forward to the HVX. To me this rabid anti-Sony stance some people have makes no sense, you just use the kit that fits the job and more often than not in the past it's had a Sony badge on it.
Times are changing now and if that makes Sony put out better kit at lower prices that has to be a good thing for all of us.
Don't get me wrong I'm not a Sony apologist, I want companies like Panasonic and JVC to provide good alternatives, and I'm looking forward to the HVX. To me this rabid anti-Sony stance some people have makes no sense, you just use the kit that fits the job and more often than not in the past it's had a Sony badge on it.
Times are changing now and if that makes Sony put out better kit at lower prices that has to be a good thing for all of us.
Steve Shovlar
DVXuser Sponsor
Steve, its a Panasonic site so the place is packed out with Panasonic fan boys, who hate the word Sony as much as Apple Mac users think Microsoft is satan.
Sony make some tremendous kit and I am an owner of an FX1 and very proud of it. Gives great results, built like a rock and made its money back a few times over for me.
Like everyone else I am waiting to see the results of the HVX when it hits the streets, and when it comes out in PAL land I will definately consider buying one, providing it lives up to the hype, and not fanboy hype either.
But the HVX could be made by Acme for all I care. I don't care what company made it, as long as its good, has proper support if it goes wrong and relevant NLE's support it. Sony make great cams, as do Panasonic.
Sony make some tremendous kit and I am an owner of an FX1 and very proud of it. Gives great results, built like a rock and made its money back a few times over for me.
Like everyone else I am waiting to see the results of the HVX when it hits the streets, and when it comes out in PAL land I will definately consider buying one, providing it lives up to the hype, and not fanboy hype either.
But the HVX could be made by Acme for all I care. I don't care what company made it, as long as its good, has proper support if it goes wrong and relevant NLE's support it. Sony make great cams, as do Panasonic.
AppliedVisual
Active member
Opcode said:
And this is exactly why I'm buying the HVX as well. I'm primarily a 3D artist/animator, but do use video as reference material and for other functions like creating background imagery, plates, etc.. I currently use two DVX100s for this and the DV format drives me insane... Not enough color info for a lot of compositing tasks and the resolution is a bit too low... But the 24p of the DVX100 actually made video truly usable in my animation workflow (all 24p, except in oddly rare circumstances). The HVX should allow me to take all this to the next level. I can't wait to use 720p60 to acquire video for motion reference and 1080p24 in 4:2:2 should be several times better than the DVX's 480p for brining in video elements. If the HVX works out as well for me as I think it will, I'll unload both my DVXs (planning on selling one of them anyway) and will buy a second DVX.
Real Sales Rankings (Yesterday from Amazon.com)
#305 HC1
#981 GL2
#999 FX1
#1,916 DVX100A
#3,785 Z1U
#9,437 DVX100B
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t.../photo/all/photo/0/1/13/1/002-3082794-0737619
The cost comparisons are a joke if all you look at is the cost of the camcorder.
If I buy a Sony I'm good to go. I record to tape which is an archive and I can edit on my current computer and Vegas which I have.
I buy an HVX I need the camcorder, a new computer, a new NLE and a new archive solution. Plus P2 cards or a FS or a new Powerbook.
Not disrespecting all that is great about the HVX200 but the price difference is HUGE (4X) between an FX1 and HVX200 system ready to capture and edit HD, for me anyway.
Points I have not seen. Adobe is shipping a new PPro soon and it may well support the HVX,which will be great news for PC users. XDcam HD has way more features than the HDX400 for $20 v. $32K. We don't know what Sony's answer is to the HVX200 and the H1 but I'd be real suprised if they did not have one. Discovery has a doc in production that will feature Sony A1 footage according to DSE.
#305 HC1
#981 GL2
#999 FX1
#1,916 DVX100A
#3,785 Z1U
#9,437 DVX100B
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t.../photo/all/photo/0/1/13/1/002-3082794-0737619
The cost comparisons are a joke if all you look at is the cost of the camcorder.
If I buy a Sony I'm good to go. I record to tape which is an archive and I can edit on my current computer and Vegas which I have.
I buy an HVX I need the camcorder, a new computer, a new NLE and a new archive solution. Plus P2 cards or a FS or a new Powerbook.
Not disrespecting all that is great about the HVX200 but the price difference is HUGE (4X) between an FX1 and HVX200 system ready to capture and edit HD, for me anyway.
Points I have not seen. Adobe is shipping a new PPro soon and it may well support the HVX,which will be great news for PC users. XDcam HD has way more features than the HDX400 for $20 v. $32K. We don't know what Sony's answer is to the HVX200 and the H1 but I'd be real suprised if they did not have one. Discovery has a doc in production that will feature Sony A1 footage according to DSE.
Justyn
Veteran
No slow mo... no deal
No slow mo... no deal
Greetings,
When debating over the merits of all cameras, I come back to the fact that several times over the past few years I've had to rent either a varicam or shoot super 16 as a client wanted real slow-motion, and now with the 200, this becomes an option for me to own without going broke with either equipment or film prices. As far as i'm concerned, it's a huge deal breaker for not being able to shoot variable frame rates... and the addition of timelapse is HUGE. I think that this camera will further infuse panasonic into all manner of TV and indi production. I don't ever see sony HDV cameras on shoots.. maybe the PDs but they have been dramatically kicked aside by the panasonic 100s. Ya got to believe this revolution is here.. and maybe when they produce a smaller cam without the mini dv component, it will be in the 3000 range.. so then all the joe schmoes will have them.. just like what happened to DV. Also, if youve invested wisely with apple products the growing pains won't be nearly as sever.
Maybe next model will do ramping and 150 frames a second or beyond.
Justyn
No slow mo... no deal
Greetings,
When debating over the merits of all cameras, I come back to the fact that several times over the past few years I've had to rent either a varicam or shoot super 16 as a client wanted real slow-motion, and now with the 200, this becomes an option for me to own without going broke with either equipment or film prices. As far as i'm concerned, it's a huge deal breaker for not being able to shoot variable frame rates... and the addition of timelapse is HUGE. I think that this camera will further infuse panasonic into all manner of TV and indi production. I don't ever see sony HDV cameras on shoots.. maybe the PDs but they have been dramatically kicked aside by the panasonic 100s. Ya got to believe this revolution is here.. and maybe when they produce a smaller cam without the mini dv component, it will be in the 3000 range.. so then all the joe schmoes will have them.. just like what happened to DV. Also, if youve invested wisely with apple products the growing pains won't be nearly as sever.
Maybe next model will do ramping and 150 frames a second or beyond.
Justyn
There seems to be a definate US - Europe split over what constitutes a nice temporal "look" video wise. From these forums 24fps seems to be by and large positively desired in the US - in Europe that doesn't seem to be the case at all. (Practically 24 is an irrelevance - shooting would happen at 25.) Indeed, the main criticism of the HD100 (Europe wise) is that it ONLY records 25p to tape for HD, not 50p. That motion rendition seems to be praised as "film look" in some quarters, derided as "jerky" or "stuttery" in others.
The point of all this is that referring to the previous post, the slo-mo ability is only possible if the desire is for a 24p end product - is it not a bad thing if an entire production is forced to be a 24 (25) product from a 60 (50) one just to optimise one or two slow motion sequences?
I can't help wondering how a slo-mo sequence would compare if it was shot at 60p and then slowed in post (end product also 60p)? Obviously there would be frame repetition, and non optimal shutter speed per frame, but would it really matter? Slowing in post may have got a bad name in the 24fps world, but maybe for limited amounts it would be OK at 50/60fps - there's so much more there to play with in the first place. With the advantages that the option of how much to slow down is kept open until the edit, and an entire production isn't forced into being 24/25p. Anybody got the means to do some tests?
The point of all this is that referring to the previous post, the slo-mo ability is only possible if the desire is for a 24p end product - is it not a bad thing if an entire production is forced to be a 24 (25) product from a 60 (50) one just to optimise one or two slow motion sequences?
I can't help wondering how a slo-mo sequence would compare if it was shot at 60p and then slowed in post (end product also 60p)? Obviously there would be frame repetition, and non optimal shutter speed per frame, but would it really matter? Slowing in post may have got a bad name in the 24fps world, but maybe for limited amounts it would be OK at 50/60fps - there's so much more there to play with in the first place. With the advantages that the option of how much to slow down is kept open until the edit, and an entire production isn't forced into being 24/25p. Anybody got the means to do some tests?
Justyn
Veteran
Post slow mo is not desired
Post slow mo is not desired
Greetings,
I've been forced to slow mo my video in post and it just doesn't give you that clean and precise slow motion that I want and get from FIlm. So, doing such a thing in post is really not a pro solution and just screams out as slowed down footage. That stutter and look just can't cut it. I've seen people use Digibeta decks and such to control the speed but that's another animal completely.
Bring me slow mo and bring it on strong. Looking forward to seeing this. The varicam slow-motion has been awesome, but thankfully the HVX will not have to use that render hogging DVCPRO Hd conversion in FCP. That was a very hated step in the process.
Justyn
Post slow mo is not desired
Greetings,
I've been forced to slow mo my video in post and it just doesn't give you that clean and precise slow motion that I want and get from FIlm. So, doing such a thing in post is really not a pro solution and just screams out as slowed down footage. That stutter and look just can't cut it. I've seen people use Digibeta decks and such to control the speed but that's another animal completely.
Bring me slow mo and bring it on strong. Looking forward to seeing this. The varicam slow-motion has been awesome, but thankfully the HVX will not have to use that render hogging DVCPRO Hd conversion in FCP. That was a very hated step in the process.
Justyn