So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

M

magichour777

New member
If I really don't want to use Vegas or FCP to edit and render 24P advanced footage. What other choices do I have with Adobe Premiere 1.5 or 1.0 to edit and finalize my project at 24p period. Do I need to switch to 24pn and then will my strobing problem go away. Would someone post a detailed work flow so that DVX100 & (A) users have a temporary workaround.

Thanks,

Magic Hour
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Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

Hey, I haven't run into the strobing problem yet but I've only had the system up and running a short time. I'm running PPro 1.5 and a Matrox RTX100.

Would you mind posting the steps you've done that can reproduce the strobing problem. I'll then follow your steps and see if I am getting the same results.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

please explain strobing problem.

i thought RTX 100 didn't work with 24p? i thought i read on the matrox website that it wasn't supported yet.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

..lol.

anyway, magic_hour ..if your finalizing at 24p. you will have no issue at all. you can export a 24p quicktime, and it will be fine, then your quicktime can go into any program for export, or transfer o HD film WM9 or whatever. but you could output a 24p HD wm9 to begin with i guess.  anyway. its only when exporting back to tape and having to telecine back to 29.976 that people are having issues and it seems the broadcast safe filter takes care of it. but adobe has been informed, and if you havent called or written them ye you should, last i heard they are seriously looking into it.

i (like hansk) am running the rtx100  which i use for 24pn projects in ntsc 29.976 timines and have no issues with strobing when editing 24pa (not using the matrox card)  in a 23.976 timline.  as far as i know people ar only having the issue on 24pa export from a 24p timeline back to tape. but can export 24p mpgs and quicktimes just fine. which means you can take that 24p quicktime, and convert it to 29.976 however you want in any program, and export to tape if you want. but again. using the broadcast safe filter should fix strobing of overexposed areas with ppro 1.5 anyway.

for me its a non issue. i have no use for exporting a finished 24p project back to tape. i would rather put it on DVD or hard disk left as a true 24p file. the file is 20% smaller cause its in true 24p. tape is nice for long term storage, but its old.. and i would personally say DVD is just as if not more reliable. espescially cause i can make 2 copies  including the project files, and extra stuff on the disc. or so for less money, and in way less time than  sitting and waiting for tape export, and dealing with potential audio or picture dropouts, and other stupid issues like getting it close to a magnet or getting it too hot or humid or whatever on accident which could ruin my master.
+ import is way faster too.  if the project is big i throw a dual layer DVD in and have 8.4 gig of backup on hand (costs alot though).. or you can always easily divide the thing up across a couple discs . anyway, then i just keep the original tapes in case i ever need them.     and 24pn goes back fine since i edit it as 29.976 to begin with on the RTX100, but i still use DVD to store it on instead of exporting to tape.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

iamloser, everytime you write something i find i have more questions than before i read your post.

i am new to video/editing as well as web forums. (any hints on forum etiquette would be appreciated). i have lots of questions, but i'll try to keep it to a minimum.

waht is 24pn?

i thought 24pa was for use with fcp only?

you say you edit 24p projects in a 30p timeline sometimes? how and why?

thanks,
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

sorry to dig the rabbit hole deeper for ya :P
..your gong to hate me for this , but im going to have to tell you to do some research on these bro, i just am worn out right now today.. no energy to answer these. and no smple way to answer.., anyone else want to feild these. anyway theve been answered 1000 times in different posts here so you could look here, but i can point you to a vaulable rescource for better answering alot of ?s from one place .

this is a link to a page with links to all sorts of info. i reccommend starting wiht the adam wilt site ones.

http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=links;action=display;num=1067016567


heres the quick answers though:

- 24pa can be used with any editing system that understands it.  VEGAS- AVID -PREMIERE PRO 1.5-BLADE-AFTER EFFECTS-
and yes FCP and more

- 24pn is a differnt cadance than 24pa it is the standard telecine from 24p to ntsc 29.976 where the cadance goes 2:3  instead of 2:3:3:2 lke in 24pa  this and the difference betwee the two and reason for using one vs the other are  explained in the adam wilt links mentioned above.

- when using the 24pn method for shooting and editing which is the same as editing a 24p film which has been transferred to NTSC for DVD or VHS or broadcast or whatever, i will edit on a 29.976 timeline because its going to stay in NTSC. i would do this cause i dont have any reason to edit in 24p or output in 24p.. if i did i would have shot 24pa. but if i want a film look for a project that is going to stay in the video world, the DVX 24pn method shoots 24p and transfers it to 29.976 in the industry standard method for me righ tin camera, so i import to NLE, and then just edit like a regular video. .. you can also pull it down to true 24p if your NLE can do it, but unless you can edit uncompressed , you will lose a little bit of quality in doing so. so its not recommended for standard native DV editing environments.. if you want o have a 24p project .. then shoot 24pa. if you want a NTSC project that was shot in 24p and transferred to NTSC .. shoot 24pn. and yes you can transfer 24pa to ntsc too, whic i reccomend cause then you have a 24p master, but then i cant use my RTX100 for realtime editing and effects and compositing and such.. so thats why i still use 24pn at all.... anyway.. the rabbit hole just keeps goin bro :)
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

good god man!!

let me read that 4-5 times, check out the site you recommended and get back to you. i assume the results you get are worth this.

do appreciate you time though!
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?


well i'm using premiere pro 1.5 with both 24p and 24pa footage just fine!

i was really worried about projects i was 80% finished with, would blow up when i upgraded to 1.5 but everything is just fine.

matthew
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

[quote author=matthewd5 link=board=Premier;num=1089410878;start=0#8 date=07/10/04 at 21:09:07]
well i'm using premiere pro 1.5 with both 24p and 24pa footage just fine!

i was really worried about projects i was 80% finished with, would blow up when i upgraded to 1.5 but everything is just fine.

matthew[/quote]

matthew,

well, i thought i was on the right track editting with ppro as well until i started reading some of the other threads on this site (adobe ppro user group site as well) regarding the bugs ppro seems to have editiing 24p. this info has made me nuts!! the only thing i could think of to do was to shoot in 60i and edit in my old version of premiere (as i am due to start shooting a project next week and can't deal with this haedache now). read up and let me know what you think.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

iamloser,

i'm working on my homework assignment.

i understand the 24pn issue. i just thought the term was standard not normal. now i know!

more dumd questions:

if i want to export only to NTSC, what settings do i use to import 24pn footage into ppro 1.5? can i edit this footage on a 29.976 timeline and maybe even use an rtx100?

i have to start shooting next week and am incline to just shoot in 60i mode and edit on a 29.976 timelime until i get a handle on 24p. it's draining time and energy away from production. and what the h... is up with all the bugs that ppro 1.5 is having with 24p? what do you think i should do? stick with ppro and wait for a fix or change app??

as you can see i'm quite confused. help!!
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

[quote author=HansK link=board=Premier;num=1089410878;start=0#1 date=07/09/04 at 16:34:59]
Would you mind posting the steps you've done that can reproduce the strobing problem.  I'll then follow your steps and see if I am  getting the same results.[/quote]
To reproduce the strobing problem, first shoot some 24pa or 24pn footage where the foreground is normally exposed but there is an  overexposed sky somewhere in the background. Then, create a new project in PPro using one of the 24p presets. Capture the footage  and drop it into a new timeline.

To see the strobing, you should be using an external video monitor. I do not see the strobing when I look at my computer monitor.

If you don't have an external monitor, you can use PPro's waveform monitor to watch the IRE values from frame to frame.

In fact, the waveform monitor may be the best way to check this, period. Here's an image I created to demostrate the flickering as seen by the waveform monitor.

www.southave.com/kevin/f5flickering.gif

If you shot 24pn (F5), the strobing is present from capture (i.e., introduced in the removal of the 3:2 pulldown). Use the arrow keys to move down the timeline and watch the value on the waveform monitor. Every fourth frame is clipped to approximately 100 IRE.

If you shot 24pa (F6), the footage seems normal, but is the strobing is present when you Export To Tape. (i.e., introduced when the pulldown is added to make NTSC legal video.)

[quote author=Magic_Hour link=board=Premier;num=1089410878;start=0#0 date=07/09/04 at 15:07:58] Would someone post a detailed work flow so that DVX100 & (A) users have a temporary workaround. [/quote]
If you shoot 24pa, edit in PPro in a 24p project, and go right to a 24p DVD, there may be no workaround necessary. In such a workflow, the problem is never introduced. This works beautifully.

If you shoot in 24p Normal or if you want to export your 24pa footage to tape, you will need a workaround. The best workaround I know is to use the Broadcast Colors to limit the IRE of all of your frames. Try a setting of 110, and if the strobe is still visible, try 100.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

iamloser,

yes me again. so, am i right in thinking that i can shoot in 24pn and import as 60i(use ppro project settings set to 29.976 drop frame). then edit in this mode and export into any NTSC format?

i'm just confused about how i'm telling ppro to import this 24pn footage and the setting to use.

thanks again!!
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

Desperado,
It doesn't matter whether you use a Standard DV NTSC preset or a Panasonic 24p preset. PPro 1.5 will always interpret the 24pn footage as 24p -- there's no way to turn it off.

You can place this footage in a 29.97 project, but Premiere will treat it as 24p and force you to render previews instead of giving you real time previews.

Until Adobe provides an "Intepret Footage" function that's really useful, I see no advantage to using 24pn in a standard NTSC project. You'll still get all of the 24p bugs and you'll lose real-time preview.

The only reason I can think of to edit 24pn in a 29.97 project is if you need to integrate your footage with 29.97 footage from other sources. But if your footage is all 24p, use one of the Panasonic presets. You can always get an NTSC-compatible file in the final render.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

[quote author=Kevin_Corcoran link=board=Premier;num=1089410878;start=0#11 date=07/11/04 at 12:23:28]
To reproduce the strobing problem... [snip]
[/quote]

I'll try out your steps and see what happens. I've got an external monitor but I will also use the scope.

It sure looks to me like you have some fairly concrete evidence.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

Wonderful, this helps me a great deal.

Thank you,


Magic Hour
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

Wonderful, this helps me a great deal,


Thanks,


Magic Hour :D
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

[quote author=Kevin_Corcoran link=board=Premier;num=1089410878;start=0#13 date=07/11/04 at 19:49:19]Desperado,
It doesn't matter whether you use a Standard DV NTSC preset or a Panasonic 24p preset. PPro 1.5 will always interpret the 24pn footage as 24p -- there's no way to turn it off.

You can place this footage in a 29.97 project, but Premiere will treat it as 24p and force you to render previews instead of giving you real time previews.

Until Adobe provides an "Intepret Footage" function that's really useful, I see no advantage to using 24pn in a standard NTSC project. You'll still get all of the 24p bugs and you'll lose real-time preview.

The only reason I can think of to edit 24pn in a 29.97 project is if you need to integrate your footage with 29.97 footage from other sources. But if your footage is all 24p, use one of the Panasonic presets. You can always get an NTSC-compatible file in the final render.
[/quote]

kevin,
i'm trying to get a look that is as close to film as possible with all my work. most of my stuff will end up on dvd,tv,and with a lot of luck film. as i understand, at this piont, i should be able to get a more film look for dvd,tv by shooting in 24pn and editing in a 29.97 timeline. and if i where shooting with film as the final result, i would shoot in 24pa.

you think it's best to drop shooting in 24pn if the final result is dvd,tv? meaning everyone that's not shooting for film conv. is waisting there time? sorry, i realize i may sound a little thick, but i'm still learning.

comments?
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

Delivering 24p as 29.97 via 3:2 pulldown is a popular choice. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying don't do it.

What I am saying is that there's more than one way to get that result. You can edit your 24p in a 29.97 timeline, or you can edit in a 24p timeline and *export* to 29.97 when you're all done. I believe the result will be the same.

What you need to factor into your choice is how hard do you want to fight against Premiere along the way?

(The bad news is that, either way, you're going have to fight against Premiere at least a little! ;) )

I find the 29.97 timeline frustrating because no matter what you do, Premiere will always interpret your footage as 24p and remove the pulldown. In a 29.97 timeline, it seems to be removing the pulldown and adding back in its own pulldown. So with a 29.97 timeline, you don't get realtime previews.

(Try it -- drag 24pn clip to a 29.97 timeline -- you'll see a red render bar appear above. Now try the same thing in a 24p timeline -- no render bar.)

Also, because Premiere *always* removes the DVX pulldown whether you want it to or not, it makes little difference whether you shoot 24pn (F5) or 24pa (F6). F5 is more prone to strobing artifacts, but these can be eliminated by applying the Broadcast Colors filter.

Maybe in the next version of Adobe Premiere, things will change. I'd like to see more control over footage interpretation. Then you could use your 24pn footage as it is, without Premiere meddling with it. In that case, editing in a 29.97 timeline would make sense.
 
Re: So Adobe screwed us, Now what do we do?

kevin,
very nice reply. maybe the mist is parting. all run some tests based on your suggestions. your opinion is that it's better to shoot 24pa for the time being?
much thanks!!
 
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