Smooth motion!!??

B

Brendan

Member
Hi all!

I’m a new DVX100 user; I placed a post about ‘flickering pans’ in December and was offered some useful advice on the nature of progressive capturing.

‘24p shooting requires thinking in terms of film shooting, not video. If you're used to 60i videography, you have to put yourself in a new mindset. With the advantage of a cool, film-like look, 24p does have it's limitations--no quick pans, no quick zooms, and certainly not the two together.’

I decided to give the cam some experimental time and after a couple of weeks of 25p tests Im still at a loss! When shooting in 25 p ANY camera movement looks horrible when viewed on a PAL monitor even with the slowest of pans, the image is strobed and stuttering covered with interlaced artefacts. I understand that progressive in its nature is more ‘flickery’ than interlaced. A few years back I shot a couple of shorts with 16 and super16 back in film school and recently shot some footage with a Sony HD cam. I’ve shot some footage with the DVX replicating these shots {movement pace & lighting conditions} for comparison with those shot on other mediums.

All the footage is sat on my hard drive- DVx100 from direct IEEE1394 capture, 16mm from a best light TK to mini DV then IE1394 capture, HD Cam, which was also transferred to miniDV, then IEEE1394 capture. Holding a still from all footage looks fine on pal monitor, as does a static shot of a talking head. The problem occurs when the camera starts to move, the 16mmTK and HD cam transfer both show slight stutter in motion {normal for progressive footage} but the picture is clear and comfortable to watch. However the DVX replicated footage makes far from comfortable viewing. Nothing in the frame has a clean edge during a pan {not so bad when tilting}, all vertical edges look interlaced {staggered across alternate horizontal pixel lines} causing a horrible unwatchable strobing image even on the slower pans. Having the V detail set to thick is of minimal help and a small conciliation for the 25% loss of resolution.

My Questions are-

Can I obtain 25P footage with pans that don’t strobe uncomfortably, where subjects in the frame have clear unstaggered defined vertical edges when viewed on a PAL monitor because I can with telecined 16mm?

If so, how?

My 16mm footage looks superb on a progressive monitor and pretty damn good on an interlaced PAL monitor where as the DVX100 footage looks superb on a progressive monitor and Horrible on a PAL monitor, WHY!???

Could my camera just be faulty!!??

Sorry for rambling but its sssoooo frustrating! :(

Any comments, help and advice would be much appreciated!

Many thanks
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Shutter speed is 1/50, I’ve tried a few others but is there a speed you would recommend?
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

I would suggest trying a slower shutter speed below the 1/48. Like any shot, planning ahead is key here. If you have blocked your scene, you should know when to adjust the speed of the shutter to accomadate the look you are trying to get.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

As the person who's above-quote inspired you to do the testing, I feel obligated to post ;)

Sorry you're having so many problems with the camera. Again, I'm have to say up front that I know nothing about PAL, so this may not help at all.

You seem to be taking all of the right steps. Shutter should not be under 1/50th (higher the better), Vert Detail should be set to thick if you're viewing it on a tv monitor.

What are your regular detail settings set to? If you're over 0, that could be your answer. Try lowering it and check the results.

I know the stuttering pan thing is usually bad in 24pA on the NTSC version of the DVX (because of the pulldown), but I don't think the PAL version has an "Advanced" and "Normal" 25p mode, am I right? I'm guessing since standard PAL is at 50i, you don't have to do any kind of pulldown to the footage, so that wouldn't be the issue.

And although everyone will say I'm wrong, to my eyes, the motion rendering of a DVX during a pan doesn't match that of film. I don't know if it's the miniscule variations in projection speed vs. locked speed of video playing tricks on visual perception or what, but I find the motion of a film pan less jarring. Maybe it's just me.

There's also the possibility that something is wrong with your camera. Have you tried to contact someone in your area with the same camera to see about trying a test? Even renting one for the day might not be a bad idea. This is a pretty popular camera & it is being used in many commercials, music videos, etc. so if you are getting an image that is horrible, it may be just your camera.

good luck, keep testing & keep us updated!
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

>>I would suggest trying a slower shutter speed below the 1/48>>

If by "below" you mean 1/25th, this is just going to create motion blur & give him another headache.  Brendan, you have checked to ensure that the OIS is off when you are shooting, right?  If you have the image stabilization on, you'll get jutter & strange floatiness in the image.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

1/48 shutter is fine, but will yeild an image virtually the excact same as one taken at 1/50.. i shoot 1/48 all the time (180 degree shutter angle equivilent on my ntsc 24p cam) 1/50 would be optimal on the pal , but if its not working you may as well try somthing new.

jay- ill be the first to say it then..on thi site somewhere there is someone who did a comparative motion test between the dvx, and a 16 mm film camera which of course has the same motion as a 35 mm. the dvx is the same. the one and only reason that the pans in film look better than the ones youve seen or perhaps done, is that the film camera is in the hand of a very seasons vet for operating a 24p film camera, and  most of the time the dvx operator does not realize that they need to treat the dvx like a film camera in order to ge the same results...or even what "treating it like a film camera" means in terms of handling the dvx. and im assuming the dvx is not on a large computer controlled boom as most film pans are done-which does a smooth tracking pan more so than a straight tripoded pan .  but if the dvx is handled in the exact same way, it will yeild the exact same results.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Well, I guess it helps to know the exact look that is trying to be obtained. Right? If motion is a headache and the staccato chopiness is a headache, then what exactly is trying to be achived here?

It is mentioned that 'ANY CAMERA MOVEMENT looks horrible'. What is the look you are trying to get here? Choppiness is killing you and as mentioned above MOTION BLUR will cause yet another headache... :P
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

sorry, but i'm still not buying into the "identical motion" thing. and i'm not some indie film hack; i've been shooting both film and video for ten years and i've had many a nice shoot just run-and-gunning both super8 and 16mm, and you just don't get the edging artifacts and stutters that you get from 24p video. it's not that it happens all the time; it's just that it does happen. i think some people just refuse to recognize that film and video are two incredibly different mediums, one which records an image directly to a strip of celluloid & the other which records to magnetic tape. the means of acquisition are different, the means of projection are different, and no matter how hard you try, video is never going to be film. and i think it's valid to tell someone who is expecting "hollywood" from a handheld prosumer camera with nil lighting that its not the camera's fault they're not achieving the aesthetic they want, but at the same time, it's wrong to dismiss the extremely large number of people who claim that there is more motion stutter in 24p video than in film (read the sdx900 review DV magazine a couple months ago--the "experts" are saying it as well as the hacks).

brendan, although i'm sure playing with the settings a bit more and disciplining your camera movements will help immensely (and there still is the minute possible that you have a broken camera), I would advise against listening to people who are trying to tell you not to believe your eyes.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

What are you talking about? Who are you apologizing too? LOL

I agree, our DVX can only do so much. It suits me for exactly what I'm trying to accomplish though.

As far a video never going to be film; well, yeah, that is true. VIDEO WILL NEVER BE FILM; ITS VIDEO

But video will replace film. That much is inevitable.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Thank you Mr. Land.

It cracks me up when everyone get's all bent out of shape about the filmic or non-filmic issues with the DVX100. It's a $3000.00 Camcorder. Prosumer, broadcast quality, whateva'

There are so many good thing being done with this camera and I think the limitations are very small considering the scale at which this camera sits.

See
November
Art History
Jungle Boyz
Dixie Chicks
Britney Spears
Music Videos

With the proper know how one can do some great work. I mean, ****, 28 Days Later was shot with the Canon and it was kick ass (So what if they used Prime lenses).

As long as people recognize what the camera is and isn't good for there should be no problems. If you're looking to shoot "Dances With Wolves" or "Cold ****ing Mountain" then using the DVX100 is probally not the best tool for the job.

IF you're shooting "28 Days Later" or "November" then it can obviously do what you need.

It is a means to an end. If I had my choice I'd shoot with the Arri 535. IF I had my choice I'd have unlimited film stock, free processing and a crew of a hundred. Welcome to reality.

Maybe it's just me, but I am overjoyed to have my DVX100 even if there is a newer model. IF I could make a clean swap right now? I would. But **** all that ****, in two years we will all want the NEXT GREAT thing anyway.

I am so ranting now.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Nice rant though! Totally agree! It's the finished film that count's. I don't think will have to wait two years for the next great thing . If your a Mac user you already now what you buy this year will be desposable next year. Maybe Panasonic is being really cleaver with a design that can be tweeked just a little bit each year. Ah heck just go out and FILM! 8)
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

..man o man... -24 equally spaced progressive frames per second recorded digitally somehow yeilds a different motion than if the same 24 frames were recorded chemically - ill paraphrase john with a "whateva" here

this whole topic is a horse rotting far under ground by now, but lets dig it up and kick it ..some people think its stuttery because they are looking at the lcd. which doesnt display all 24fps, and some think its stuttery because they havent removed the pulldown from the 24pa footage, and yet some think it stuttery cause theyre waving it around like a wildcat when shooting. so many of the reviews were from people who touched the cam once and were eager to dismiss it as a futile attempt to emulate the love god called "film". so brendan, i would urge you to believe in what you see. just make sure you understand why you are seeing what you are seeing when you are reviewing your 24p VIDEO on your wacky digital machinery . if you want to worry about whether the motion is idetical to that of film (the dinosaur slowly sinking into the tar) than run some tests or ask a film transfer house like dvfilm.com. really its a who different issue as to whether the motion of the dvx at 24p is the sam as film , but if your camera is really that bad , and incapeable of perfoming any movement without stutter, its probably defective. i know mine is very capeable of of movement while creating very beatiful non stuttery film-like imagery.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Hi Brendan,

you're not alone with this problem. I have the same problem as yours. My DVX100 is PAL version and I am totally confused with the interlace artifact as yours. I think we have to ask this matter to Panasonic and see what will be adviced or suggested or maybe we have the faulty DVX100 one. ???
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Hi guys thanks for all your responses. Sorry about my delayed reply but there’s about 12 hours difference in our time zones. Now I know that there’s a lot of work being created with this camera for broadcast in both its interlaced and progressive modes so it must be working for some people. But I can’t dismiss what my eyes are seeing. I thought that maybe I had become to close to my work and was being over critical so it always good to present it to a fresh pair of eyes {particularly to people who have nothing to do with this industry} which I have done. They thought that the static shots were very pleasing to the eye but found it very difficult to watch when the camera was moving, so this cant just be paranoia.

‘It is mentioned that 'ANY CAMERA MOVEMENT looks horrible'. What is the look you are trying to get here?’

John, I’ve read a lot of discussion on subtle setting changes to attain certain looks but my request is really very simple. All I want is to be able to move the camera in 25p mode and acquire footage that I can ACTUALLY USE for PAL display without giving my audience motion sickness or endangering the lives of those with photosensitive epilepsy.

‘The look’ I’m getting within a static frame is beautiful, I just want to be able to move the camera! Please let me move the camera!!…… The moths are eating my stedicam vest!

This is undoubtedly a great camera and its being used successfully for all types of work. The only stuff I’ve seen broadcast wise is the Britney Spears Documentry {which looked like interlaced acquisition to me and okish camera work} and wild boys on MTV which looks great {is that shot in progressive?}

Thanks for the setting suggestions, I will double check them all and let you know how I get on. Djony, If I manage to sort out this issue I will tell you how otherwise were just gonna have to ring Panasonic!!
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Brendan--

I think you have the right approach. As you can see, there are plenty of people on this site with differing ideas, and some who just want to turn a blind eye to any of its faults. It's not going to look like a film pan, but it shouldn't be looking horrendous or unwatchable either. Again, I'd highly recommend trying another camera to see the results & if they're the same, buy another camera. As many people as there are that love this camera's look, there are just as many people that hate it & would be better suited with another camera. Guess that's why it's always good to test a camera before you buy it, but I know that's not always an option (it wasn't for me). But I congratulate you on being one of the few people who seem to have the guts to say that the camera is not perfect.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

[quote author=Jay_Blanchard link=board=Events;num=1073579563;start=0#16 date=01/10/04 at 11:28:50]Brendan--

As you can see, there are plenty of people on this site with differing ideas, and some who just want to turn a blind eye to any of its faults.  -----  But I congratulate you on being one of the few people who seem to have the guts to say that the camera is not perfect. [/quote]

I am not one that usually get's into debates in here (ask anyone here or check past posts) but what do you mean?

I don't think anyone here has turned a blind-eye to the DVX100 and I also don't think anyone here has stated that the camera is PERFECT.

I do see however, people stating that it is what it is (prosumer, broadcast quality, suits the needs, means to an end, does the job, $3000 best buy, etc etc etc)

I'm curious of what you mean by the above comments? I don't maybe I'm just irritated today but when I read POSTS like yours I think "HUH?"

So, Jay. Can you elaborate on the above sound bytes? Of particualr interest is the "having the guts" comment and the "turning a blind eye" comment.
 
Re: Smooth motion!!??

Me too. I wish:

Interchangeable Lenses
Easier to hand hold (More traditonal camera body)
It is kind of Pinkish Red (It's cool, I like more muted hues, I can adjust with settings, post, filters)
Buttons could be friendlier
Pistol Grip would be killer
Lens cap is kind of a pian in the ass!

Man, that took some serious guts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top