Slew of questions about workflow

[Lenilenapi]

I have some basic questions about workflow that have probably been explained elsewhere, but i can't seem to find it in one place, or find info that is reliable.
So please bear with me on some basic questions and point me to some other address if it is explained there.
I'm hoping to take possesion of an HVX this week and don't want to be a total idiot.
These questions all refer to current technology not Firestores or Cineporters in the future.


1. Is there any way to directly record HD from the HVX into a computer or Hard disk without going through the P2 card ( i.e through the firewire or the USB2)?
(Onto a Mac running FCP?)

2. Can you continuously record for a long period by shuffling from one P2 card to another and continually dumping the P2 cards into a computer ( say a laptop) ?

If so:

a) how long will it take to dump out the P2 card to the computer?
b) Can you be sending it on the computer to an external firewire drive (which say you could give your client at the end of the shoot.)
c) Is firewire 400 OK?
d) Does the computer need to have any special speed , memory or capacity other than having a PCMCIA slot?
(BTW is that slot always referred to as a PCMCIA or is there another common term?)
e) Special software on it?
c) Does it matter if it is a Mac or PC?
d) Could you simultaneously be backing up to a second hardrive for security. Or would you have time in-between P2 cards being dumped.

3. Can I record HD on my P2 cards but monitor in SD on my trusty old 8" Sony 8054. Would that really be so bad? i've done it plenty with Sony Z1

4. If I have an HD monitor (say I get a Dell 2405), where does the signal for monitoring come from ( firewire or component out?) - and couldn't this signal be used to record onto some device?

5. Let's say I'm dumping P2 card after P2 card. How & where does the continuous shot get re-stiched together?

6. I seem to have read somewhere (in the manual) that when you connect the P2 card to a harddisk it erases everything on it. Did I get that right?
Does that mean you will always need a dedicated drive to dump to, with no other info on it.
Will it erase other HD files from other P2 chips, or previously dumped files ( That wouldn't make any sense at all.)

7) Can i simultaneously record HD or DVCP50 onto a P2 card (or from the firewire or whatever else will work) and record to the cassette with a miniDV back-up. If not could I get any other signal out that would record an SD back-up ( say Y/C or firewire.)

8. What options for reviewing shot footasge do i have once the P2 cards have been dumped onto a harddisk in the computer.
- Can the camera still see them?
- Will FCP or quicktime play them?

OK that's plenty of questions for now.
Thanks

 

[Jarred Land]

1. Is there any way to directly record HD from the HVX into a computer or Hard disk without going through the P2 card ( i.e through the firewire or the USB2)?
(Onto a Mac running FCP?)

yes.. using FCP you can via firewire capture live.

2. Can you continuously record for a long period by shuffling from one P2 card to another and continually dumping the P2 cards into a computer ( say a laptop) ?

yes.. the changeover of cards is seamless.

If so:

a) how long will it take to dump out the P2 card to the computer?

looking like realtime so far.. depends on a couple factors.

b) Can you be sending it on the computer to an external firewire drive (which say you could give your client at the end of the shoot.)

yes.. you can, its not recommended to use the same bus though.

c) Is firewire 400 OK?

yes, and so much so only so.

d) Does the computer need to have any special speed , memory or capacity other than having a PCMCIA slot?

well you need 4gb of free space per card. The speed needs to be a powerbook of recent years. PCs look like they need to be at least 3ghz Pentium or equal too.

(BTW is that slot always referred to as a PCMCIA or is there another common term?)

no thats right. but im sure we will give it a nickname pretty soon. Like PC2 slot or something.

e) Special software on it?

it comes with a preview program for PC's, on Macs you need FCP for the live capture, and to edit with. DVfilm just released Raylight, which on the PC reads cards and allows you to convert the P2 footage to a new AVI file.

c) Does it matter if it is a Mac or PC?

Yes... as of right now, its alot easier if you use a Mac. PC compatibility is very soon to come though.. and with DVfilm you can start already.

d) Could you simultaneously be backing up to a second hardrive for security. Or would you have time in-between P2 cards being dumped.

no... your asking for trouble if you do this.

3. Can I record HD on my P2 cards but monitor in SD on my trusty old 8" Sony 8054. Would that really be so bad? i've done it plenty with Sony Z1

Yes.. as far as i know. You can also do a DV downrez from some HD formats on the HVX from P2 card to tape.

4. If I have an HD monitor (say I get a Dell 2405), where does the signal for monitoring come from ( firewire or component out?) - and couldn't this signal be used to record onto some device?

It is via component HD. It is an analog HD format, still pretty good, and if you really really wanted to you could record this stream, but your not doing yourself any favours. It will display nice on a Dell 2405.. its what i use. When you hook it up, set your monitor to Pixel by Pixel accurate display.

5. Let's say I'm dumping P2 card after P2 card. How & where does the continuous shot get re-stiched together?

there is a flag in the files in the folder (each card gets dumped to a new folder) that tells it to carry onto the next folder.

6. I seem to have read somewhere (in the manual) that when you connect the P2 card to a harddisk it erases everything on it. Did I get that right?
Does that mean you will always need a dedicated drive to dump to, with no other info on it.

yes.. at least a partition. If you do it to an ipod, your ipod wont play anymore. if its already formatted, it wont reformat without you telling it to.

Will it erase other HD files from other P2 chips, or previously dumped files ( That wouldn't make any sense at all.)

no. look above.

7) Can i simultaneously record HD or DVCP50 onto a P2 card (or from the firewire or whatever else will work) and record to the cassette with a miniDV back-up. If not could I get any other signal out that would record an SD back-up ( say Y/C or firewire.)

no.. you could do it with a different firewire DVX though attatched.. shooting in DV mode.

8. What options for reviewing shot footasge do i have once the P2 cards have been dumped onto a harddisk in the computer.
- Can the camera still see them?
- Will FCP or quicktime play them?

quicktime plays em, and in FCP if you have the latest patch you can goto "import P2" and it will ingest the card.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Thank you very much.
That is all very very helpful.

I know I will have some follow ups but only two come to mind immediately:

1) If dumping out from a P2 card to the computer is pretty much real time, then will you have time to get it back into the camera to take over when the second card is full?
Seems like you will need 3 cards at least and this could be pretty harrowing.

2) I don't suppose its possible to set up two laptops running FCP simltaneously to record the realtime HD from the HVX. The purpose would be back-up. I'm pretty paranoid about losing footage to a computer or hardisk crash.

How much are you worried about harddisk or computer malfunctions?

 

[Haakon]

If you want to do "unlimited" continuous recording with P2, you pretty much need three cards, yeah. That's not really the best scenario for P2; it's much more suited towards short clip news and narrative filmmaking (streaming to a laptop or using one of the intelligent external drives would be a much better solultion for longer scenarios).

I don't think there's any way to run out to two computers at once. I definitely don't trust hard drives myself... but then I do narrative films and music videos which don't require hours of continuous shooting. :thumbsup: P2 is the bomb.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thank you very much.
That is all very very helpful.

I know I will have some follow ups but only two come to mind immediately:

1) If dumping out from a P2 card to the computer is pretty much real time, then will you have time to get it back into the camera to take over when the second card is full?
Seems like you will need 3 cards at least and this could be pretty harrowing.

2) I don't suppose its possible to set up two laptops running FCP simltaneously to record the realtime HD from the HVX. The purpose would be back-up. I'm pretty paranoid about losing footage to a computer or hardisk crash.

How much are you worried about harddisk or computer malfunctions?

yes 3 cards it is. But, if your shooting 720 24p stuff.. if you get 4 cards your looking at about 45 minutes of record time, which for most people is enough for a day shoot, as long as your not recording some 3 hour long straight program.

I wouldnt try the dual laptop, with that much going on you have so many chances to screw things up and loose everything.

If your really paranoid, the safest bet right now probally is for you to get a P2 store.. its rock solid, 60gb device that takes a card, dumps it to its drive, verifies the transfer was solid, then erases the cards. As you are filling that P2 store up, you can use USB to a laptop to copy its contents so you have 2 copies.

 

[Barry_Green]

3. Can I record HD on my P2 cards but monitor in SD on my trusty old 8" Sony 8054. Would that really be so bad? i've done it plenty with Sony Z1

Yes you can definitely do this; we shot the Karate footage this way, with the composite output piped to a Sony 9L3 8" SD CRT.

 

[izoneguy]

Starting to sound as if a new category of crew member is popping up?? P2 Wrangler??
How much would a future HVX shooter pay to have a P2 wrangler on the set??
Lets say the P2 Wrangler shows up with 2 - 4 gig cards, a laptop (Apple?) a 200 gig Harddrive with Enclosure that you take after the shoot ($200-$250) OR Bring Your Own Hardrive. BYOH
A decent size HD Monitor 17"-24" (Dell or Apple)
What else would you need??

 

[Jarred Land]

that job is usually called a HD tech.. that would be his job.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Problem is, at that cost , why not get a varicam and just shoot on tape?

Thanks very much guys you've clarified of this of this for me.
It's not really that simple until the firestore & cineporter come out.

Wish the P2 store were cheaper.

Here's a few more questions:

1) Won't the P2 become almost obsolete once the cineporter and the firestore come out, or do you think it will remain an important tool in this system?

2) What are the cheapest alternatives for laptops?
(i.e minimum requirments)(I'm including used machines here - I guess hoping for more specific info than Jarred provided above, I know very little about laptops).

a)One for a laptop that can be used just to dump P2 cards. (Would a G3 work or an ibook?)

b) To run FCP 5 for continuous recording.

3)How reliable do you thinl the FCP laptop model will be in on location or studio shoots?

Thanks again, what a great forum.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Excuse me, I meant to ask (above):
1) Won't the Panasonic "P2 store" become almost obsolete once the cineporter and the firestore come out, or do you think it will remain an important tool in this system?

I realize that P2 in one form or another is basic.

 

[Jarred Land]

Excuse me, I meant to ask (above):
1) Won't the Panasonic "P2 store" become almost obsolete once the cineporter and the firestore come out, or do you think it will remain an important tool in this system?

I realize that P2 in one form or another is basic.

not really.. the P2 store is really a completely different device than the above. The P2 store is basically a replacement for offloading to a laptop, either to clear the cards for re-use or for backup. It heavly depends on P2 cards.

The firestore and cineporter are more for live capture... basically a way around depending on P2 cards.

 

[The Machinist]

a)One for a laptop that can be used just to dump P2 cards. (Would a G3 work or an ibook?)

As long as you aren't trying to preview the files yea it should work. It's basically being used as a glorified hard drive then.

b) To run FCP 5 for continuous recording

You'd want a newer Powerbook.

How reliable do you thinl the FCP laptop model will be in on location or studio shoots?

A new Apple Powerbook is as reliable if not more so then you're current computer. In terms of capturing footage. But it carries other considerations like keeping it safe and powering it on set. I imagine running FCP constantly would eat up its battery in just a couple of hours. But i haven't tested this yet.

Problem is, at that cost , why not get a varicam and just shoot on tape?

At what cost? The cost of several P2 cards or HVXGuy's setup?

In either case absolutely not. Do you know how much a Varicam costs? Or DVCPro HD tape stock for that matter?

 

[Lenilenapi]

Thanks again for great answers.

Jarred, for the money it doesn't seem like the "P2 store" offers anything that a laptop can't do, and actually offers considerably fewer features.

Will anyone actually be buying those?

 

[Barry_Green]

I think the P2 Store is not really aimed at a general market, I think it's a special-purpose device. I think the main target guy for the P2 Store is the one-man news crew, who has to shoot everything himself, so he wears a P2 Store on his belt which automates the whole card-offload process.

For anyone who has the ability to set up a laptop, a laptop is an extremely preferable choice.

 

[stokestack]

"quicktime plays em, and in FCP if you have the latest patch you can goto "import P2" and it will ingest the card."

Yes, but QT plays them only on the Mac. Unfortunately, the the DV50 and DV100 codecs were not made available in QuickTime 7 for Windows. And the only Windows codecs are scattered amongst various vendors. The lack of a freely available DVCPro codec for Windows Media has been discussed in other threads. Does anyone know what the in-box documentation tells Windows users to do?

 

[Lenilenapi]

OK, I'm getting the hang of all this,
Sounds like I need for minimal together package
HVX200 - $6K
tripod - $2K
Dell 2405 $1K
2 - 4 4Gig P2 cards $1.2 - $2.5K
Laptop $1.5K
- So we're talkin $11K + another $2K when Cineporter comes out
(not to mention mattebox, wide/angle adapters, 35mm adapters, filters etc)

On the laptop, if I stick w/ Mac I could go pretty cheap if I don't care to record directly, but I do need a 15" powerbook to get the PCMCIA slot & the firewire outs (pref 800)

questions:

1- What do you guys think about buying a second hand laptop. I have no hesitancy about a tower, but are laptops more dicey?

Also I see them in 1MHz, 1.25 MHz, 1.33MHz, 1.5MHz & 1.67MHz - of course each newer than the one before.

2 -How fast a machine do I need to run FCP 5 to capture live over firewire?

3 - What about if I want to do very minimal editing in the field?

(BTW do I need FCP 5 to capture live? no FCP 4.5?)

 

[Jarred Land]

mm nice package lenilenapi.

Its a good time to buy the mac laptop.. the new once where just announced, with no built in P2 slot so it wouldnt so you much good anyways.. so you might be able to snag a discounted one.

You need a G4 powerbook to capture live HVX200 footage in FCP.

and you need FCP 5 to do P2.

 

[Lenilenapi]

Jarred, what do you think about the idea of a used or at least previous generation on the G4's?
How fast need it be?
I see plenty of used ones on Craig's list already.