Shooter
Veteran
The trick to skin tones is in "lighting" and understanding exposures and levels. Lighting flat and "doing it in post" is a limiting workflow and a poor substitute for good lighting techniques (skills).
Skin tones on the af100
- Thread starter lennywood
- Start date
The trick to skin tones is in "lighting" and understanding exposures and levels. Lighting flat and "doing it in post" is a limiting workflow and a poor substitute for good lighting techniques (skills).
Barry_Green
Moderator
The AF100 has VERY saturated color (like all the Panasonic AG series). On caucasian skin that means that you can go to (at most) 80 to 82 IRE, before the red channel starts clipping. Now, considering that "proper" exposure is normally said to be about 60 IRE, with the very very very hottest highlights at no more than 70 IRE, this is usually not a problem. However, with the AF100, people have been complaining about "yellow highlights" more than I've ever seen on all of the other AG cameras combined (that means the DVX100, HVX200, HPX170, HMC150, HPX500, HPX300, HPX370, HMC40, HMC80, all put together). I don't know what it is about the AF100, or AF100 shooters, that apparently makes people want to shoot more brightly-exposed skintones, but ... it's there, so we have to deal with it.
What I have found is that if you tone down the oversaturated colors, you can substantially extend the range of exposure before the red channel starts clipping. If you turn the chroma level all the way down to -7, and switch to the cine-D gamma, you can expose your skin tones all the way up to 89 IRE before the red channel starts clipping.
Use the right settings for your shooting style and you should end up much happier with the skintone highlight rolloff. And, my advice is to not overexpose the skintones in the first place; keep the absolute brightest hot spots below 80 IRE, preferably at 70 or below, for proper exposure and exquisite highlights.
What I have found is that if you tone down the oversaturated colors, you can substantially extend the range of exposure before the red channel starts clipping. If you turn the chroma level all the way down to -7, and switch to the cine-D gamma, you can expose your skin tones all the way up to 89 IRE before the red channel starts clipping.
Use the right settings for your shooting style and you should end up much happier with the skintone highlight rolloff. And, my advice is to not overexpose the skintones in the first place; keep the absolute brightest hot spots below 80 IRE, preferably at 70 or below, for proper exposure and exquisite highlights.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I know why people are overexposing skin and get into trouble when they do it on the AF camera. I and many others are so used to shoot with DSLR cameras that handle clipping gracefully. It clips but it doesn't get ugly like it does on the AF. So when we try to do the same on this camera we fail because it doesn't look good to have a hard luma or especially chroma clipping like one gets on the AF. Often in bright light I can push exposure way up around a person and still get a decent skin tone. Somehow on a Canon DSLR like the 7D or 5DmkII highlights get blurred and looks smooth. I even think a GH1 looks smoother than the AF when overexposing.
Maybe it's due to some sort of compression taking place on DSLR cameras but no matter what it still looks better. Maybe we can ask Jan to do the same for the AF?
Maybe it's due to some sort of compression taking place on DSLR cameras but no matter what it still looks better. Maybe we can ask Jan to do the same for the AF?
Goodness - the AF100 is not a DSLR and in no way acts like a DSLR. It comes equipped with many more image controls and gamma curves designed to be used in a wide variety of shooting environments - learn them.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I know the AF is not a DSLR I'm only saying many are used to how such camera handles clipping. Maybe we are spoiled...
Thank goodness it isn't, but that does't mean that Editman has no point. What I like to know is clipping a problem on the AF100. If it is, it should be corrected and if it isn't, just tell the user what settings to use to handle the clipping. IMO a default setting must take care of this problem and not a work-arround.
Barry_Green
Moderator
But... why would you want to shoot skin tones a stop or two overexposed? The stock AF100 with the richest color has plenty of latitude to accurately and nicely represent the skin in the right exposure range. If you are getting skin tone clipping, it's because you're overexposing the skin in the first place.
And no, there is no "problem" -- the AF100 handles it just like the HPX500, HPX370, HPX300, HPX170, HVX200, DVX100, DVX100A, DVX100B, HMC40, HMC80, and HMC150. They all work exactly the same, and if you use them as designed they will deliver color performance which has always been highly praised.
And if you want to shoot extremely highly exposed skintones for some reason, just turn the chroma level down some and it will greatly extend the range you can shoot at.
And no, there is no "problem" -- the AF100 handles it just like the HPX500, HPX370, HPX300, HPX170, HVX200, DVX100, DVX100A, DVX100B, HMC40, HMC80, and HMC150. They all work exactly the same, and if you use them as designed they will deliver color performance which has always been highly praised.
And if you want to shoot extremely highly exposed skintones for some reason, just turn the chroma level down some and it will greatly extend the range you can shoot at.
Well, IMO, it is a shooter's responsibility to learn how to shoot with the camera. It isn't going to automatically adapt to whatever situation you push it into. It works extremely incredibly well when you treat it the way it wants to be treated. Overexpose and blow out your skintones and they're going to look overexposed and blown out. Keep it in the proper range for exposure and it will perform excellently. So do your testing, learn how it works, and then use it the way it's designed to be used.
Barry great explanation; thanks. What do you say about this evaluation or did you say something about it somewhere else??
http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...onic_AF101.pdf
http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...onic_AF101.pdf
Barry_Green
Moderator
That evaluation is being discussed thoroughly in a different thread. Interestingly for this thread, the only comment on color was that it was very good, and there was certainly no hint of any chroma clipping "problem". He had his issues with other aspects, but definitely not that.
Shooter
Veteran
To add another little extension to skin tone clipping problems that some experience ( due to lack of exposure control IMHO)....there is a very good reason that professionals apply make up to actors / subjects.
Shiny skin is to be avoided because skin tone is no longer what is being photographed / exposed for...it is the oily shiny moist skin. This does not figure in a normal IRE setting for skin tones.
Shiny skin is to be avoided because skin tone is no longer what is being photographed / exposed for...it is the oily shiny moist skin. This does not figure in a normal IRE setting for skin tones.
I was on a shoot with a buddy of mine using a 5Dm2. He is about 20 years my senior and no chump when it comes to exposure. He was telling me I was underexposing. Turns out I wasn't, but from learning how to read the screen and waveform, I knew I was nailing the right spot for the camera. And I'll chime in on what Barry said, the key to getting it right on any Panasonic AG is the same. My DVX, my HPX170... Hell, even the HDX900, they all handle the highlights pretty much the same way. 1000 ISO, 1/24 Shutter, C/Y Zeiss 85mm 1.4, B-Press Gamma, natural lighting.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
Nice looking. I agree it sometimes seams to be underexposed but the WFM tells the truth.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I've been trying to tell people this as well with the AF100, that have come from the DSLR. If you try and expose to the same things you saw on the back of your Canon on the AF100, you'll be over exposing when you finally look at the two of them later. I have the same problem because I am so used to shooting on my 7D, that I am always pushing the AF100 in the wrong direction. Its very strange 
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I have a story to tell.
A director who works with us hired another photographer to shoot abroad with the AF101. I couldn't go so I talked to him about things to look out for when shooting with this camera. I told him to be very careful of getting into VFR mode when doing interviews and I told him to avoid overexposure and even how to do it. He manage to dip into this things with lost audio and awfully looking footage. The director wasn't pleased and now hates this camera. The photographer had used a 5D prior to do another job just like this one but when using the AF101 he failed bad. It's then very easy to blame the equipment used rather than taking the blame yourself. As a side note it's not until now, three months later, that I have found out how to best use this camera and how to avoid most of the pitfalls.
A director who works with us hired another photographer to shoot abroad with the AF101. I couldn't go so I talked to him about things to look out for when shooting with this camera. I told him to be very careful of getting into VFR mode when doing interviews and I told him to avoid overexposure and even how to do it. He manage to dip into this things with lost audio and awfully looking footage. The director wasn't pleased and now hates this camera. The photographer had used a 5D prior to do another job just like this one but when using the AF101 he failed bad. It's then very easy to blame the equipment used rather than taking the blame yourself. As a side note it's not until now, three months later, that I have found out how to best use this camera and how to avoid most of the pitfalls.
lennywood
Well-known member
Wow, this thread had legs! I never imagined.
I am the one that started it a while ago. To rap up, I had two AF100s and sold them both. Don't get me wrong, i love the camera and what it could do, for the money, but at the end, I felt like I could really only use if for myself as a play/travel camera, but not as a work camera. Yes, it's true, if you expose correctly and keep the lighting flat it does ok on skin tones (and only ok), but that is not my lighting style, I like contrast, i like drama, i like highlights. I was going to go buy an F3, but who knows what surprises i will find there. So I figured, I have an Alexa, that camera is as perfect as I have ever known just south of film, so I will just use that, and spend my money on lenses for it.
Speaking of lenses, I have a few Olympus and Pana/Leica lenses that I bought for my AF100 for sale. 35-100, 25/1.4, 35/2 macro
And about what Barry Green is saying. I love Barry, I think he is genius, but i respectfully disagree with his point of not over-exposing skin tones. Maybe for an interview that is ok (and even there not always), but for dramatic lighting it is all about dramatic contrast, and I personally like to add some overexposed highlights depending on the feel.
This is not a great example of that, but here is a frame grab from the alexa:
I am the one that started it a while ago. To rap up, I had two AF100s and sold them both. Don't get me wrong, i love the camera and what it could do, for the money, but at the end, I felt like I could really only use if for myself as a play/travel camera, but not as a work camera. Yes, it's true, if you expose correctly and keep the lighting flat it does ok on skin tones (and only ok), but that is not my lighting style, I like contrast, i like drama, i like highlights. I was going to go buy an F3, but who knows what surprises i will find there. So I figured, I have an Alexa, that camera is as perfect as I have ever known just south of film, so I will just use that, and spend my money on lenses for it.
Speaking of lenses, I have a few Olympus and Pana/Leica lenses that I bought for my AF100 for sale. 35-100, 25/1.4, 35/2 macro
And about what Barry Green is saying. I love Barry, I think he is genius, but i respectfully disagree with his point of not over-exposing skin tones. Maybe for an interview that is ok (and even there not always), but for dramatic lighting it is all about dramatic contrast, and I personally like to add some overexposed highlights depending on the feel.
This is not a great example of that, but here is a frame grab from the alexa:
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Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
Here you can see alot of skin tones:
I tried to capture as many faces in different kind of lights during our latest commercial shoot.
I tried to capture as many faces in different kind of lights during our latest commercial shoot.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
The AF is superior in may ways but not when it comes to very shallow DOF, highlight roll off and the fact that the director loves 5DmkII images so I'm just providing equipment. But yeah it felt kinda weird...
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
A horse in the bed?!
Wow. I´d love to see that Godfather commercial.
Very nice pictures, well done.
Frank
Wow. I´d love to see that Godfather commercial.
Very nice pictures, well done.
Frank