Size of M/S Rigs

C

cocteau

New member
First off, thanks to everyone for such great content and discussion. This forum has been invaluable to me as I've learned about audio and I truly appreciate everyone's experience and willingness to share it.

There is one thing that I've been unable to find all that much about: Mids-side for film work, or at least good size/sound/setup comparisons.

I'm going to purchase a good interior dialogue mic soon, which brought me to the CMC641. Thing is, though, I want to expand to a stereo setup next year, and as far as upgrade paths go, it seems like a valid option would be to pickup up a Senn. 8040 now and add an MKH30 for stereo. My only concern with the 8040 is the handling noise, but I have a 442 so I'm thinking I'd just highpass.

It seems like a Schoeps setup (MK41,MK8) would be exponentially more expensive (with cabling, etc.) and possibly larger than a Sennheiser setup, especially if an 8030 comes out in the 8000 form factor). The CCMs wouldn't work because I need the 41 on a boom sometimes.

Basically, what kind of sizes are we dealing with here? I simply don't have experience with M/S in the field. I would get a Schoeps 641 and and Sanken CSS5 and be done with it, but I want to record some classical here and there in addition to the ambience/SFX in stereo, hence the midside setup, which would give me a great hyper/cardioid for interior dialogue and then stereo for ambience/fx when I need it.

Basically, budget is a concern, but great sound and size are much greater ones. Thanks.
 
I use a Shure VP-88, which is a single-point MS stereo mic, when I need little fuss. And the mid capsule used on its own is a really nice-sounding cardioid for studio.

You might want to look at a pair of Audio Technica 4050 mics. They're multi-pattern (omni, cardioid, fig-8), so you can create your own MS setup. You might also consider three omnis for a Decca Tree setup. For choirs and orchestras, Decca can get some very nice results.
 
My own MS rig is the MKH 30/40 in a Rycote stereo windshield kit or a modified INV for indoor work.

Going very small, you can use an MKH 8040 head and a Neumann KM 120 A head on remote cables and these will fit inside a Rycote Stereo extended ball gag. This is a good alternative until the Sennheiser MKH 8030 comes out (planned but no date yet).

This is my 30/40 rig:-

153171d1263498446-anybody-using-mkh-8040-mkh-30-mid-side-rycotestereowindshieldm.jpg




This rig is the MKH 8040 (or8050) + Neumann KM 120-A in a stereo windshield (it would be smaller if you remoted the heads in a stereo ball gag):-

167976d1271207674-anybody-using-mkh-8040-mkh-30-mid-side-ms-setup-ws-rear.jpg


I hope this helps.
 
Thanks, guys. I'll definitely check those mics out.

Yes, John, its a great great help. A million thanks. I actually came across your rig on a forum in my research. It looks terrific and ideal. I guess my only concern was about the 8040 and the supposed handling noise issue. I couldn't find any resolution to this other than the Invision mount, but even there I saw people with issues.

Too, I just haven't heard it in dialogue situations, or, for my purposes, conversational voiceover. I work in post, and I've come across the Schoeps, which really drove me to make a good microphone purchase, but I just worry that for what I really need, the Schoeps wouldn't be a practical purchase... I'd already imagined moments where I'd be holding it or talking to it, walks in Central Park just listening to the world around us... so it kind of breaks my heart... but that's what film and video are for I guess.

The 8040 setup does seem perfect from what I gather: a 641 style pattern in a CCM size body at a reasonable price (especially when you factor in the cost of the Schoeps cables vs the Senn.)...

John, in another forum, I believe you mentioned putting an 8040 stereo pair in a Rycote stereo ball gag, then being able to modify it down the road for MS when the 8030 comes... what mount would I need? I'm not lazy, I tried looking at the options but I'm just confused as to whether I could get an invision now to cure the handling noise and use that for the MS setup later with a clip (seeing the stereo mount for the mono ball gag threw me for a loop). I'm trying to stay as small as possible, which is why the 8040 intrigues me so much.

Thanks so much for your help, guys. When I buy a mic, it's not so much an investment, it's a loving companion. (I'm actually in the process of a divorce from an ME66. I read Jay Rose's self help books, "Audio For Post Production" and "Producing Great Sound For Video", and came to realize how poorly it's treated my ears all this time, how I'm better than that, so I'm gonna up and leave and I'm taking the SM57s with me!).
 
cocteau said:
Thanks, guys. I'll definitely check those mics out.

Yes, John, its a great great help. A million thanks. I actually came across your rig on a forum in my research. It looks terrific and ideal. I guess my only concern was about the 8040 and the supposed handling noise issue. I couldn't find any resolution to this other than the Invision mount, but even there I saw people with issues.

Too, I just haven't heard it in dialogue situations, or, for my purposes, conversational voiceover. I work in post, and I've come across the Schoeps, which really drove me to make a good microphone purchase, but I just worry that for what I really need, the Schoeps wouldn't be a practical purchase... I'd already imagined moments where I'd be holding it or talking to it, walks in Central Park just listening to the world around us... so it kind of breaks my heart... but that's what film and video are for I guess.

The 8040 setup does seem perfect from what I gather: a 641 style pattern in a CCM size body at a reasonable price (especially when you factor in the cost of the Schoeps cables vs the Senn.)...

John, in another forum, I believe you mentioned putting an 8040 stereo pair in a Rycote stereo ball gag, then being able to modify it down the road for MS when the 8030 comes... what mount would I need? I'm not lazy, I tried looking at the options but I'm just confused as to whether I could get an invision now to cure the handling noise and use that for the MS setup later with a clip (seeing the stereo mount for the mono ball gag threw me for a loop). I'm trying to stay as small as possible, which is why the 8040 intrigues me so much.

Thanks so much for your help, guys. When I buy a mic, it's not so much an investment, it's a loving companion. (I'm actually in the process of a divorce from an ME66. I read Jay Rose's self help books, "Audio For Post Production" and "Producing Great Sound For Video", and came to realize how poorly it's treated my ears all this time, how I'm better than that, so I'm gonna up and leave and I'm taking the SM57s with me!).
Click to expand...

I have not found my own 8040 have had any handling issues - but I'm always careful that way.

The Rycore Stereo Extended Ball gag is the same one that is used for the Schoeps - but the mount is elastic and not a lyre - the internals can be moved to XY or MS.

This is the mount showing the Schoeps heads:-

322362.jpg



It shows XY but you can move them to MS - so it would work for 8040 pair now and for an 8040 + 8030 when Sennheiser bring out the fig.8.

I hope this helps.
 
I personally don't understand the fasination of stereo mics. IMHO I think it is easier to use a shotgun to capture most field audio. Maybe I could understand using a stereo mic setup for Foley work but really nothing else.

This is a good discussion BTW. This makes me think about other mic techniques that I don't come across too often.
 
Cedric Akins said:
I personally don't understand the fasination of stereo mics. IMHO I think it is easier to use a shotgun to capture most field audio. Maybe I could understand using a stereo mic setup for Foley work but really nothing else.
Click to expand...

Stereo in the field is needed to pick up wildtrack if nothing else.

Otherwise everything will be pan-pot mono with no depth.
 
I really like that Senn.. MKH 30-40 setup!
I believe it best to use the same brand preamp for both M and S.
 
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I really wasn't sold on premium for the use of stereo until I saw 'In The City of Sylvia' last year. If you haven't seen it, you can get a good idea from the trailer.

Ever since then, I've been keeping my ears open and, like John says, stereo adds so much depth. Hsiao-hsien Hou is another director who makes amazing use of ambience in scenes with static cameras, and now that I'm tuned into it, I'm watching films I previously only saw.

For comparision's sake, does anyone have a Schoeps M/S rig? I'm just wondering how big this would be. From what I gather, the setup would be a CMC641 ($1743), CMC6 Module ($836), MK8 ($1094), an Invision 7 ($69), and a clip to place the mics one on top of the other (I've heard it referenced on here but couldn't find the part). The only things I'm unsure of here is the smallest wind protection that would fit this setup, as well as whether or not I would need active cables.
 
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