Silly questions 4 - HVX 720p worries

J

jamez

Member
Ok, first off, I hope this doesnt sound silly - but I am about three weeks away from a music video shoot.
Tools: HVX 200 + Mini 35
Preferred mode: 16x9 720p 24p.
Now the silly part: I am just doing some research to check the possible post production side. We will edit on FCP 5 for delivery to Beta SP or Digibeta broadcast masters. I want to maintain the filmic look of 24p and edit in the 29.97 environment just like I have done with SDX 900 DVC PRO 50 24p.
I keep hearing this thing about the conversion going to 59.97 or 60i? and FCP not actually supporting the function yet. WTF? And possible downsides of mini 35...
Why does it all have to be so confusing?

Silly question #1
I have heard that the effective ISO for the Mini 35 and HVX 200 is around 40 ISO
The light loss of the adapter is about 2 stops in my experience...(with XL1s)
most shooting is in day - but will have a few night shots. What is the general concensus here?

Silly question #2
firestore or just cards?
- we will have a power book and G-RAID on site

Silly question #3
Monitoring HD on site and in post... options?

Silly question #4
Would I edit in a regular 4x3 sequence to obtain the letterboxed broadcast versions? Furthermore, If I edit in widescreen mode how can I get a 2:35 wiiiiidescreen output?

Your guidance is gold.
 
#1= Mini-35 losses light, your lenses lose light also don't forget. Slow lens = more loss. The HVX is light hungry to begin with. You will need lots of light. You can use 24 shutter to gain a stop or two if needed.
 
1. I don't know about the mini35, but the M2 only loses about a stop of light (1.5 stop at most).
2. It really depends on how many cards you have, and how you're doing it. The Firestore (as I understand it) doesn't do native 24pn (in 720), so you'll have to strip out the extra frames in post (time loss?). If you have three 4 or 8 GB cards and someone to offload them, you should be fine with just the powerbook.
3. Marshall 7-inch on-camera, 17-inch Sony, Panasonic (sweet), or Dell 2405 (worst case scenario) off-camera. There are other options I'll leave for others to list.
4. I'm not sure about the first part of this question (4x3 letterbox). Please clarify. For 2.35:1 it is recommended that you shoot 1080pa and crop in post.
 
For eventual letterbox distribution, edit in 16:9 anamorphic. When you have finished your edit, you can place your timeline into a 4:3 sequence, FCP will automatically letterbox the sequence for output (you'll probably have to render it).
 
As far as the frame rate goes, if you're recording to a P2 card and doing 24pN (which takes the least amount of space), you must realize that it's TRUE 24p. It's not like the DVX where it's actually 24p but from a 30 fps signal. There are simply 24 pure frames which, in Avid at least, makes my life a hell of a lot easier (not sure about FCP).

If you're shooting firestore however, the 720 24p stuff is going to put into a 60i stream. This is the main reason I won't touch the FS-100.
 
DavidBeier said:
As far as the frame rate goes, if you're recording to a P2 card and doing 24pN (which takes the least amount of space), you must realize that it's TRUE 24p. It's not like the DVX where it's actually 24p but from a 30 fps signal. There are simply 24 pure frames which, in Avid at least, makes my life a hell of a lot easier (not sure about FCP).

If you're shooting firestore however, the 720 24p stuff is going to put into a 60i stream. This is the main reason I won't touch the FS-100.
Click to expand...


Cool, thanx for all the info to everyone... I think we'll just use cards...
monitor we'll figure out. But I am still a little leery of the 720Pn thing - would I be editing in a 29.97 timeline? Or a 23.98? The main concern here is the eventual output to BETA SP for broadcast TV.
 
Ok, if anyone says the FS-100 can't do variable frame rates ONE MORE TIME, I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN!!!!!

The FS-100 can recored anything the HVX200 can do with the only exception being 24pNative. And let's hope they can upgrade for that format, too!

24p records TRUE NATIVE 24P, and then adds extra frames to output the 60fps clip file. In Final Cut 5.1 you can use the really neat (and fast) DVCPRO HD Frame Rate Converter to make those 24p mode clips back to their TRUE 24fps!

All 24p Native does is not add the extra frames for the 60fps output. It is not any more of a true 24p than 24p mode is, PERIOD!
 
True, but the file sizes are 20% smaller without all the redundant pulldown frames inserted, which may be a factor in people's decision...
 
jamezk said:
would I be editing in a 29.97 timeline? Or a 23.98? The main concern here is the eventual output to BETA SP for broadcast TV.
Click to expand...

This is a great question. Can someone please answer this?

My instinct is that if you're going to be shooting for TV, 24pa (rather than 24pn) would be the best choice. True?
 
Once upon a time, back when there were very few editors that understood 24p footage, shooting 24pN made some sense.

But now, now that basically every editor (except Liquid) has end-to-end 24p support, it's almost silly to shoot in anything other than 24pA.

Shoot 24pA, edit on a 24p timeline. If you have to make a BetaSP version, make your final render to 29.97.

The only reason to edit in a 29.97 timeline anymore is if you're going to be integrating 29.97 footage into your edit. Other than that, if it's all 24p footage, shoot 24pA and edit on a 24p timeline.
 
Barry_Green said:
Once upon a time, back when there were very few editors that understood 24p footage, shooting 24pN made some sense.

But now, now that basically every editor (except Liquid) has end-to-end 24p support, it's almost silly to shoot in anything other than 24pA.

Shoot 24pA, edit on a 24p timeline. If you have to make a BetaSP version, make your final render to 29.97.

The only reason to edit in a 29.97 timeline anymore is if you're going to be integrating 29.97 footage into your edit. Other than that, if it's all 24p footage, shoot 24pA and edit on a 24p timeline.
Click to expand...

Barry
If a 24p timeline is good, why not shoot 24pn instead of 24pa? Wouldn't it be easier if you didn't have to strip out redundant frames? Or, were you referring to 1080 footage? (I know you like that 1080 stuff.)
 
You can't do 24pN with an FS-100. That's another reason why. Plus you can go to a 60fps based timeline and still be native. But if you're doing 24fps through the whole project, well, if you are doing P2 cards, go for it.
 
jamezk,

I haven't read everyone's post but I just shot with the same set-up on Sunday (HVX with Mini 35)

I rated the Camera at 200 ASA and did not have any problems. I used T1.3 prime lenses and had lots of room to play. Try to keep your lens aperture at about 2.8. This will help avoid the HVX lens from capturing the grain on the moving gg.

We used three 4-gig cards down loaded into a PowerBooks. First clones were made of the cards by making a disk image. The clones were then copied to a second drive as backup. FCP was used to import the footage as QuickTime then those files were copied to the second drive as well. This operation was all done by a DME (digital media Editor a phrase coined by Mike Connie at Plasticity) His job on set was to manage and organize the media.

I must say the footage looks fantastic. I would like to post some clips but the director would have my head. And I need to keep working. (maybe later)

I hope this helps, Good luck on your production.
 
Barry_Green said:
Once upon a time, back when there were very few editors that understood 24p footage, shooting 24pN made some sense.

But now, now that basically every editor (except Liquid) has end-to-end 24p support, it's almost silly to shoot in anything other than 24pA.

Shoot 24pA, edit on a 24p timeline. If you have to make a BetaSP version, make your final render to 29.97.

The only reason to edit in a 29.97 timeline anymore is if you're going to be integrating 29.97 footage into your edit. Other than that, if it's all 24p footage, shoot 24pA and edit on a 24p timeline.
Click to expand...

Hey Barry am I I missing something here? I have only been shooting 24pn and sending the footage off to editors. Is there something else we should know. Why is 24pa better than 24pn? Or did I just not understand?
 
5ive said:
jamezk,

I haven't read everyone's post but I just shot with the same set-up on Sunday (HVX with Mini 35)

I rated the Camera at 200 ASA and did not have any problems. I used T1.3 prime lenses and had lots of room to play. Try to keep your lens aperture at about 2.8. This will help avoid the HVX lens from capturing the grain on the moving gg.

We used three 4-gig cards down loaded into a PowerBooks. First clones were made of the cards by making a disk image. The clones were then copied to a second drive as backup. FCP was used to import the footage as QuickTime then those files were copied to the second drive as well. This operation was all done by a DME (digital media Editor a phrase coined by Mike Connie at Plasticity) His job on set was to manage and organize the media.

I must say the footage looks fantastic. I would like to post some clips but the director would have my head. And I need to keep working. (maybe later)

I hope this helps, Good luck on your production.
Click to expand...

Awesome - thanx for the info, BTW any grain noticeable in any night footage?
And shooting specs: 24pn, 720p? optimal shutter speeds?
thanx for the reply! Also when and if editing footage shot at this setup in a 60I timeline, do we still retain the 24 frame look?
 
jamezk,

I haven't used the camera at night yet, (all studio shooting) so I can't comment. But from what I have seen from footage sot by the community, i don't think you have anything to worry about. However that being said just get the package you are going to use and test.

I shot 24pn at 720p at 180? shutter with +3 sharpness to compensate for the adaptor, using scene file 5.

I hope this helps. I'll post stills when I can.
 
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