Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Pretty Cool!
Looking forward to news of FCPro support.
Looking forward to news of FCPro support.
Silicon Imaging SI-1920HDVR Camera
- Thread starter Fugitive
- Start date
Forrest Schultz
Active member
Ari! dont put in the tic tac toe rule of thirds grid!!! I think it would be a waste. These arent put on 35mm video assist displays and such. I guess you can add it as a selectable (on/off) deal. But i think it makes it less professional. A real DP should know how they want to compose the shot without constantly making sure they are using the grid.
I for one as an amueter filmaker use the rule of thirds but am not bound to it in any way. Thanks for accepting all the input
I for one as an amueter filmaker use the rule of thirds but am not bound to it in any way. Thanks for accepting all the input
willshipp
Active member
the camera looks great for set up shots but you still look very limited on doing any kind of hand held. plus the cost of all the things you need, lens, anton bauer batts, charger, matte box, hd monitor, filters, sachtler tripod, micro force zoom control, hard drives,etc.your well over $ 35,000 before you shoot any footage.
requests!!!
requests!!!
I would love to see a smaller and lighter form factor. I'm looking for a camera that can be used in a mobile shoot and run environment. Something with a viewfinder, that is sturdy and reliable.
Workflow with FCP sounds like it is coming which is great.
Cheaper (complete package), lighter, smaller and all it would need is 1080p!!!
thanks
requests!!!
I would love to see a smaller and lighter form factor. I'm looking for a camera that can be used in a mobile shoot and run environment. Something with a viewfinder, that is sturdy and reliable.
Workflow with FCP sounds like it is coming which is great.
Cheaper (complete package), lighter, smaller and all it would need is 1080p!!!
thanks
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
Just curious, how small and light? With the PC inside the camera, we obviously can't get DV-camera size. For weight we're targeting 10lbs. We were thinking that's pretty "light" and-in line with most ENG/film cameras. You can put our camera on your shoulder very easily (we are providing a shoulder rest accessory and hand-grips . . . it wasn't on the camera since we had it on a tripod at the show). Also RED for instance, is targeting 7lbs., and once you add a Cooke S4 prime like you saw at the show, you're easily over 10lbs., and no way to get it on your shoulder with the weight over your shoulder (the shot-gun apperatus they showed still puts the weight out over your arms rather than allowing your body to carry the weight, and the flip-out LCD is not condusive to shoulder-mounting . . . same problem with HVX200, etc.). I'm sure there are ways around this with the RED, but the point is that we're going to be in-line weight-wise with other cameras on the market.
BTW, if you go to our website, you'll see that the night-shots on the Las Vegas strip are all hand-held . . . so you can definitely do hand-held shots quite easily.
When it comes to accessories, remember, you can leverage many off-the-shelf PC parts, i.e., you don't need a $5K "HD monitor", you can use anything with a DVI input.
I'm sorry about the price of the batteries, but any reliable field-tested battery format is going to cost you some money . . . I'm not sure I would trust other non-professional battery systems (like generic laptop batteries) outside of Anton Bauer, IDX Tek, etc. Also laptop batteries can't charge near as fast, don't last as long (their cells are not made to withstand the extreme-stresses of high current-draw for long periods of time), and tend to be proprietary format (who should we use, Apple-style, Dell, HP, etc.??). Also I don't believe they like being dropped, can't operate as well in extreme temperatures (put them in the cold and watch your run-times completely tank), need special circuitry in the power supply to keep them from exploding or discharching too quickly, and again, just aren't as reliable. We internally debated using laptop-style batteries, but after evaluating the requirements of professional use, saw that they simply weren't going to meet the need. Remember that the camera is using up around 60-65W of power at 14.4V, so you can't use small cheap 7.2V batteries like the HVX200, etc. either. So it's just something that's a part of professional camera use. If you get our small camera head only-camera, then that can use any off-the-shelf battery parts, even a firewire power cable if your laptop has a 6-pin firewire cable (and 12V on the firewire cable).
BTW, just for reference, we were able to shoot all day (as long as we wanted) with three 140W/hr batteries and a charger, which will run you around $2.5K for a kit from Anton Bauer. The batteries charge very quickly (around 2.5 hours), so by the time you're done with one battery, you have another fresh one to use. Also because it's a standard A/B battery system (or again, substitute your favorite), you can rent batteries from practically any rental shop that has video cameras, or any in-town videographer who has an ENG-style camera. So these batteries are very easy to come by even if you don't want to purchase your own. And of course you can always plug the camera into A/C power.
When it comes to tripods, matte-box, etc., again, you're getting what you pay for. Even if you purchase any other camera on the market, these are still items who's price-points haven't changed. And for us to make all our own accessories would be very inefficient, since we don't have the volumes of somebody like Chroziel, Arri, Sachtler, Miller, etc., so our prices would either have to be higher than you'd probably like, or the quality/features wouldn't be there.
Hope this all makes sense.
Thanks,
Jason
BTW, if you go to our website, you'll see that the night-shots on the Las Vegas strip are all hand-held . . . so you can definitely do hand-held shots quite easily.
When it comes to accessories, remember, you can leverage many off-the-shelf PC parts, i.e., you don't need a $5K "HD monitor", you can use anything with a DVI input.
I'm sorry about the price of the batteries, but any reliable field-tested battery format is going to cost you some money . . . I'm not sure I would trust other non-professional battery systems (like generic laptop batteries) outside of Anton Bauer, IDX Tek, etc. Also laptop batteries can't charge near as fast, don't last as long (their cells are not made to withstand the extreme-stresses of high current-draw for long periods of time), and tend to be proprietary format (who should we use, Apple-style, Dell, HP, etc.??). Also I don't believe they like being dropped, can't operate as well in extreme temperatures (put them in the cold and watch your run-times completely tank), need special circuitry in the power supply to keep them from exploding or discharching too quickly, and again, just aren't as reliable. We internally debated using laptop-style batteries, but after evaluating the requirements of professional use, saw that they simply weren't going to meet the need. Remember that the camera is using up around 60-65W of power at 14.4V, so you can't use small cheap 7.2V batteries like the HVX200, etc. either. So it's just something that's a part of professional camera use. If you get our small camera head only-camera, then that can use any off-the-shelf battery parts, even a firewire power cable if your laptop has a 6-pin firewire cable (and 12V on the firewire cable).
BTW, just for reference, we were able to shoot all day (as long as we wanted) with three 140W/hr batteries and a charger, which will run you around $2.5K for a kit from Anton Bauer. The batteries charge very quickly (around 2.5 hours), so by the time you're done with one battery, you have another fresh one to use. Also because it's a standard A/B battery system (or again, substitute your favorite), you can rent batteries from practically any rental shop that has video cameras, or any in-town videographer who has an ENG-style camera. So these batteries are very easy to come by even if you don't want to purchase your own. And of course you can always plug the camera into A/C power.
When it comes to tripods, matte-box, etc., again, you're getting what you pay for. Even if you purchase any other camera on the market, these are still items who's price-points haven't changed. And for us to make all our own accessories would be very inefficient, since we don't have the volumes of somebody like Chroziel, Arri, Sachtler, Miller, etc., so our prices would either have to be higher than you'd probably like, or the quality/features wouldn't be there.
Hope this all makes sense.
Thanks,
Jason
10s
Veteran
I don't know what size screen you'll have on the camera but these little cheap 3.5 LCDs are toys that are a pain to use. Put a 7" monitor on it using a flex arm. It's an insult to buy an expensive camera to only to have to turn around and buy another monitor to go on top because the one that came with the camera stinks. Some back of the seat LCD monitors appear better than some camera monitors.
Daniel Leite
New member
Just some thoughts:
- for form factor and design look at arri's 416 and aton's they know what they do.
- Another set-up could be a detachable pc body that would go as backpack with the camera head, lenses and lcd separated for hand-held, shoulder or a light weight stabilyzer, like the Flyer or even the Merlyn.
- Interchangeble lens mounts would be cool also (f mount, pl mount and others)
DL
- for form factor and design look at arri's 416 and aton's they know what they do.
- Another set-up could be a detachable pc body that would go as backpack with the camera head, lenses and lcd separated for hand-held, shoulder or a light weight stabilyzer, like the Flyer or even the Merlyn.
- Interchangeble lens mounts would be cool also (f mount, pl mount and others)
DL
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
Hi Daniel,
We have interchangeable lens mounts (F, PL, B4, and C), so you can put really any lens you can get your hands around on this camera.
Also you can put together any PC really and record . . . we're even thinking you may be able to-do it with a Mac Mini and Bootcamp (haven't benchmarked the Mac Mini, so that's the only hold-up that I can see off-hand). That's the point of the $12.5K package-slap your own setup onto the camera head or wherever you want and use it any way you like.
Also the on-camera touchscreen/LCD is a high-resolution 7" running at 1280x720 . . . I would shudder at the thought of a small 3.5" LCD!
We have interchangeable lens mounts (F, PL, B4, and C), so you can put really any lens you can get your hands around on this camera.
Also you can put together any PC really and record . . . we're even thinking you may be able to-do it with a Mac Mini and Bootcamp (haven't benchmarked the Mac Mini, so that's the only hold-up that I can see off-hand). That's the point of the $12.5K package-slap your own setup onto the camera head or wherever you want and use it any way you like.
Also the on-camera touchscreen/LCD is a high-resolution 7" running at 1280x720 . . . I would shudder at the thought of a small 3.5" LCD!
hemophilia
Well-known member
What's the deal with audio? I see you have audio metering in your on-screen display, so presumably the software is in fact recording sync audio with the images? Obviously for PC-based systems there are a billion options as far as existing audio interfaces go. How does your set-up work? Are there audio inputs on your hardware, or are you using some 3rd party device?
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
Right now the audio is input via the Line-in or Mic-in ports.
We can use any Windows WAV compatible device. We're recording 2-channels of 48-bit/16khz directly into the AVI file, and ASIO support is planned for the future so you can plug-in those nice USB/Firewire audio devices for better sound quality.
Of course dual-system sound is still probably the best bet for the highest quality sound recording (with the highest quality mic preamps), but the in-camera options are very nice as well, especially when compared to other broadcast cameras on the market.
We can use any Windows WAV compatible device. We're recording 2-channels of 48-bit/16khz directly into the AVI file, and ASIO support is planned for the future so you can plug-in those nice USB/Firewire audio devices for better sound quality.
Of course dual-system sound is still probably the best bet for the highest quality sound recording (with the highest quality mic preamps), but the in-camera options are very nice as well, especially when compared to other broadcast cameras on the market.
10s
Veteran
Jason you must have transposed the 48 & 16, it should read 48kHz freq sampling with 16 bit depth. I'd recommend you bump everthing up to 24 bit 96 kHz because you would now be able to capture at the top range of actually discernable audio. The double system would now be an option. A built-in limiter could do much of the work of a mixer riding gain in many situations.
Standard def DVD specs are already 96 kHz and the new HD DVD specs are hitting 192 kHz. 192 is good for anti-aliasing filters and math crunching but far beyond Human perception, so 96 works out best for quality & conserving memory.
Putting good preamps in would then put the camera into a new league of its own touched by none other. Most camera video foks think 16 bit 48kHz is good enough....sorry, it's very nice but only 1/2 way there, 24 bit 96kz is the human perceptual edge.
Standard def DVD specs are already 96 kHz and the new HD DVD specs are hitting 192 kHz. 192 is good for anti-aliasing filters and math crunching but far beyond Human perception, so 96 works out best for quality & conserving memory.
Putting good preamps in would then put the camera into a new league of its own touched by none other. Most camera video foks think 16 bit 48kHz is good enough....sorry, it's very nice but only 1/2 way there, 24 bit 96kz is the human perceptual edge.
Jason Rodriguez
Well-known member
The problem with 24/96 is that it's not supported in the VFW AVI wrapper. We would break compatibility with video for windows, so then a generic VFW application would never be able to open the files properly with audio.
We've been thinking about doing 24/96 to a separate WAV file on disk, and I think that's most likely what would have to happen, since again, two channel 24/96 would not work with VFW compatible AVI's. Maybe with Quicktime things change (I would assume they would) . . . but I don't know enough about that.
BTW, please keep in mind, that if your pre-amps aren't capable of over 100db of dynamic range (A-weighted), then 24/96 is complete overkill . . . you're simply not digitizing anything but noise. It would be like having a 14-bit A/D on a imager with a max S/N of less than 50db, which again, would be a complete waste of digital bandwidth. Many of these lower-end solid-state 24/96 sound-cards and devices (such as the generic on-board PC audio systems, etc.) only have the pre-amp dynamic range to fill up 16-bits/48Khz, so if you record in that format, you aren't loosing anything, it's only the numbers don't seems as "pretty" in marketing terms.
To really take advantage of 24/96, you'll want dynamic range in the 105-109db range, and that requires a nice set of mic preamps and A/D converters. That typically requires one of those external professional firewire/USB devices, not generic PC on-board audio. When we move to supporting those devices (ASIO support), then we will again, most likely record a separate 24/96 WAV file, since we can't break compatibility with the VFW functionality of the AVI files we're recording.
We've been thinking about doing 24/96 to a separate WAV file on disk, and I think that's most likely what would have to happen, since again, two channel 24/96 would not work with VFW compatible AVI's. Maybe with Quicktime things change (I would assume they would) . . . but I don't know enough about that.
BTW, please keep in mind, that if your pre-amps aren't capable of over 100db of dynamic range (A-weighted), then 24/96 is complete overkill . . . you're simply not digitizing anything but noise. It would be like having a 14-bit A/D on a imager with a max S/N of less than 50db, which again, would be a complete waste of digital bandwidth. Many of these lower-end solid-state 24/96 sound-cards and devices (such as the generic on-board PC audio systems, etc.) only have the pre-amp dynamic range to fill up 16-bits/48Khz, so if you record in that format, you aren't loosing anything, it's only the numbers don't seems as "pretty" in marketing terms.
To really take advantage of 24/96, you'll want dynamic range in the 105-109db range, and that requires a nice set of mic preamps and A/D converters. That typically requires one of those external professional firewire/USB devices, not generic PC on-board audio. When we move to supporting those devices (ASIO support), then we will again, most likely record a separate 24/96 WAV file, since we can't break compatibility with the VFW functionality of the AVI files we're recording.
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10s
Veteran
Well, it sounds like you can keep the 24/96kHz option in mind for future upgrades. I suggest putting in excellent preamps into the camera sometime in the future and the type I'm suggesting are not the cheap stuff, I'm not even thinking about those cheap "Sand Blaster" cards. I'm suggesting good preamps. They are not that big either, I'll bet you can mfg. and find a way to put them into the camera without turning the camera into a boat anchor. This audio option would be a great competitive advantage.
thanks
thanks
Ari Presler
Well-known member
Head on Wire Camera - Spoon
Head on Wire Camera - Spoon
Here is the rig the "Spoon" team built with the remote camera head!
"Here is the first rugged set ready head on wire si1920. It's a nice size and weight. We will be recording and controling on wire so the operator only shoots for composition the rest is controlled at the wafian....Both heads are making excellent images. Everyone here is crowded around the monitors in disbelief. Very very excited. We shoot tommorow."
Can't wait to see some of their footage!
In the meantime, we will get working on adding more audio support
!
mmm...anyone for this rig in 3-D?
Head on Wire Camera - Spoon
Here is the rig the "Spoon" team built with the remote camera head!
"Here is the first rugged set ready head on wire si1920. It's a nice size and weight. We will be recording and controling on wire so the operator only shoots for composition the rest is controlled at the wafian....Both heads are making excellent images. Everyone here is crowded around the monitors in disbelief. Very very excited. We shoot tommorow."
Can't wait to see some of their footage!
In the meantime, we will get working on adding more audio support
!mmm...anyone for this rig in 3-D?
Ari Presler
Well-known member
7" LCD with External 24" LCD
7" LCD with External 24" LCD
For those of you who havnt seen the 7" LCD operation with mirrored DVI output to large 24" widescreen LCD monitor in action, be sure to watch the David Faires video shoot (Courtesy of Cineform).
You can see some of the highlights in this Windows Media clip
7" LCD with External 24" LCD
For those of you who havnt seen the 7" LCD operation with mirrored DVI output to large 24" widescreen LCD monitor in action, be sure to watch the David Faires video shoot (Courtesy of Cineform).
You can see some of the highlights in this Windows Media clip
hemophilia
Well-known member
Yeah what's up with the DVXuser topic header, eh? There's just this thread, and another under "hvxnews", which this camera is most certainly not.
Jarred-- Why no props to the project that looks like a very cool step-up from the HVX? And when comparing it to the Red that gets not only a topic but its own color scheme, the SI will be cheaper, actually exists, will be out sooner, and many other cool points. Such as the fact that the people working on it are [also] here soliciting our opinions to bring to market a product that serves our needs. So let's give credit where credit is due! The fact that Ari and Jason are here answering questions and getting feedback is wicked-cool; props to them.
If no SI topic appears, and the DVX-kings show up to give their next HVX boot camp fully decked-out in Oakley gear-- they're going to be highly suspect!
Jarred-- Why no props to the project that looks like a very cool step-up from the HVX? And when comparing it to the Red that gets not only a topic but its own color scheme, the SI will be cheaper, actually exists, will be out sooner, and many other cool points. Such as the fact that the people working on it are [also] here soliciting our opinions to bring to market a product that serves our needs. So let's give credit where credit is due! The fact that Ari and Jason are here answering questions and getting feedback is wicked-cool; props to them.
If no SI topic appears, and the DVX-kings show up to give their next HVX boot camp fully decked-out in Oakley gear-- they're going to be highly suspect!